What happens when I play a kicked Rite of Replication on Hamletback Goliath?
Asked by Eric1827 10 years ago
How do +1/+1 counters get distributed?
from Rite of Replication
's gathererer:
10/1/2009 The tokens see each other enter the battlefield. If they have a triggered ability that triggers when a creature enters the battlefield, they'll all trigger for one another.
so the original would get 30, (6 times 5), and each of the new ones would get 24 (6 times 4) as they don't trigger them selves.
October 7, 2014 3:20 p.m.
to clarify:
the original Goliath would see 5 6/6's enter the battlefield which would add 30 counters.
each of the tokens would see 4 6/6's enter the battlefield which would add 24 counters.
This is due to the fact that the Goliath state's "when another creature enters the battlefield"
October 7, 2014 3:24 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Both answers are unfortunately missing a vital point. The power of the creature is checked not as it enters but as the ability resolves. Some one asked the question with a Primal Vigor on field not to long ago and I did the full math there. Since the explanations are the same I'll just leave this link and say that you are getting 5 creatures all with power well over 500 each and putting stupid amounts of counters on the original.
October 7, 2014 3:30 p.m.
So I believe that the tokens would see each other enter giving each other 24 +1/+1 counters as a result the original would se 5 tokens with 30/30 giving the original 150 +1/+1 counter?
October 7, 2014 3:37 p.m.
No, it's actually way more ridiculous than that, and I have to pull my hat here once again because I indeed forgot about the check on resolution. This thread that's been linked in the thread Gidgetimer linked explains more or less exactly what you're asking for here, though I'm at no math skill level to prove their results right or wrong. It's going to be way more than 30 or 150 counters, though.
October 7, 2014 3:51 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
OK since the misconception has further propagated I will make a chart for the no doubling effect, Hamletback Goliath controlled by the same player scenario. The Goliath's ability checks the entering creature's power upon resolution. I assume that the most optimal way to stack triggers would be to resolve one trigger for each in a series of "generations" making them raise somewhat equally but getting the biggest benefit within those restrictions otherwise. I am using X->Y:Z as short hand for X's ability triggered by Y makes X's total power Z.
1->5:12
2->1:18
3->2:24
4->3:30
5->4:36
2->5:54
4->2:84
1->4:96
3->1:120
5->3:156
3->5:276
1->3:372
4->1:456
2->4:510
5->2:666
4->5:1122
3->4:1398
2->3:1908
1->2:2280
5->1:2946
And then you put all of the original's triggers on the bottom making it get 9654 counters.
October 7, 2014 3:54 p.m.
It depends on how you stack the triggers. The best way to stack them, is to do so that the original resolve last.
the first token comes into play with 24 counters creating a 30/30 creature
the second token comes into play with 48 counters since it sees the first creating a 54/54
the third token comes into play with 96 counters since it sees the first two creating a 102/102 the fourth token comes into play with 192 counters since it sees the first 3 creating a 198/198
the firth token comes into play with 384 counters since it sees the first 4 creating a 390/390
the original gets 768 counters as it see all the tokens enter play creating a 774/774 if it had no other counters on it.
October 7, 2014 3:57 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #10
Ok apparently my method is slightly sub-par and with correct stacking you could get 24,636 counters on the original. The exact stacking is in the article BlueScope linked. But the fact remains that each of the tokens entering has 4 distinct triggers to resolve and power is checked as they resolve so each token can be made a minimum of 1k power without too much fore thought by ordering the 20 triggers in an intelligent way.
October 7, 2014 4:05 p.m.
so I see the way I resolved them was not optimal...lol
October 7, 2014 4:06 p.m.
Well i read it differently...
"Whenever another creature enters the battlefield" so the first creature is already on the battlefield, then Rite is played and copies 5 more Goliath and they all comes in at the same time. The copies wont get any counters from original (Creature A)cause its already on the field.
(A) Got 6/6, (B,C,D,E,F) each got 6/6.
So basically (A) get 5*6=36 + Hes own power = 42.
(B,C,D,E,F) get 5*6 = 36.
So (A) get 42/42 and the rest 36/36. Thats is how i would resolve it.
Again, the Rite makes 5 copies that comes in to play at the same time and Goliath get counters WHEN creatures comes in to play. To even futher backup my theory i would refer to the Magic pc games and MTGO.
When you got a creature with "gives other +1/+1" in play and play another creature, its got hes own "stats" and gets the changes after "been played animation".
- Orginal stats.
- Played on battlefield.
- Changes to stats resolved.
If you want those big a$$ number you would need more Replication cards or other copy cards.
April 3, 2015 8:34 a.m.
another post necroed!
the way you did it is wrong, the ability resolves in the order you put them, and the they look to see the power as they resolve. So the smallest you could make them is:
a(original) = 30 counters (65) = power of 36b = 24 counters (6 4) = power of 30c = 48 counters (6 * 3 + 30) = power of 52d = 94 counters (6*2 + 30 + 52) = power of 100
e = 188 counters (6+30+52+100) = power of 194
f = 382 counters (30 +52 + 100 + 194) = power of 388
April 3, 2015 8:54 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #15
Necrobump FTL and misconception on how the ability works. In the section for resolving spells and abilities the comprehensive rules state that:
608.2g If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied.
The triggered ability of Hamletback Goliath is an effect that requires information from the game. Specifically the power of the creature that entered. The answer is determined when the effect is applied and the counters are put on, not when the ability is put on the stack.
Also Duels of the Planeswalkers is well known to have mistakes regarding what actually happens as per the rules so it is a bad source to use. I've never seen a complicated interaction like this on MTGO so I can't speak for how the rules are on there. However I have given a reference to the comprehensive rules to support my answer, and the comprehensive rules are the end all, be all when discussing interactions.
BlueScope says... #1
If I'm not mistaken, creatures entering the battlefield from a single effect asre entering at the same time, and they see each other. That means both the original Goliath as well as the tokens created would get 30 +1/+1 counters each.
October 7, 2014 3:08 p.m.