Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider vs opponents doubling seasons.

Asked by BrennanH 3 years ago

So Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider vs an opponent with something like Doubling Season, how would that work on the stack. For instance if they put 5 counters on a permanent and doubling seasons goes on the stack then vorinclex goes on, would it go off in reverse order were vorinclex would reduce it to 2 counters then doubling would try to add 2 counters but vorinclex would go off again and make that a 1 counter so the permanent would only get 3 counters on it? Or am I completely off on how this would work? And because it's rounding down, if an opponent put only one counter on a permanent it would be instead no counters?

Tyrant-Thanatos says... Accepted answer #1

Replacement effects do not use the stack.

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).

616.1e Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.

Essentially, the controller of the affected permanent would choose what order the replacement effects apply in.

Edit: Additionally,

614.5. A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace that event

A replacement effect can never affect the same event more than once. There will be no back-and-forth of any kind. Each will affect the event once, in the order of affected permanent's controller's choice.

January 31, 2021 9:49 a.m. Edited.

BrennanH says... #2

So you're saying in the end it will be 5 counters because they essentially cancel each other out.

January 31, 2021 4:40 p.m.

Tyrant-Thanatos says... #3

It depends. If the controller chooses to double first then halve, yes. But if they chose to halve first, 5 divided by 2 (rounded down) is 2, doubled to 4.

It's also worth noting that these two effects are worded slightly differently, and can end up having weird interactions. Specifically, Doubling Season affects all effects that would put counters on permanents its controller controls, regardless of the source of those counters. Vorinclex on the other hand, cares about the source, halving any counters your opponent would place, regardless of who controls the thing they're placing counter on, and doubles the ones you place. So as an example in this instance, if it was you, the controller of Vorinclex, putting counters on something of theirs, the controller of Doubling Season, it would be doubled twice (effectively quadrupling).

January 31, 2021 8:56 p.m.

BrennanH says... #4

Oo wow I didn't even think about that. You could almost make a weird monkey paw group hug deck. Thank you for the feedback. It was great help.

January 31, 2021 11:36 p.m.