Transcendence, Phyrexian mana and the stack.
Asked by Phobophile 13 years ago
have a Transcendence out
pump a Immolating Souleater paying 2 life.
my understanding is that when you pay life for the souleater, the second ability of Transcendence triggers, making you gain 4 life instead, and when you have 40+ life, the FIRST ability triggers to check if you lose the game.
my question is, is this exploitable with something like a Fling ?:
"pay" life, let the ability that makes you gain life instead resolve, then in response to Transcendence 's second ability, pay life with Immolating Souleater AGAIN, and repeat until you have a huge creature to Fling , causing your opponent to technically "die" before you lose the game.
Well I would think the second ability (lose the game) would only trigger when you have 20 life. Since it triggers then it would go on the stack and able to be responded to. It would make sense that you could Fling your Immolating Souleater before you lose since the ability is still on the stack.
The only Oracle ruling is this: If your life total is 20 or more and you control an effect that states "you can't lose the game", then an infinite loop is formed. If neither player wants to end the loop by removing one of these two cards from the battlefield, the game ends in a draw.
That tells me the ability is a triggered ability. In that scenario you can't lose so it triggers over and over, infinite times. I believe you can respond to the second ability while it is on the stack. Actually the third ability would never have to resolve because you could just respond to that.
It's best to look up complete rulings for this card. I think you can Fling in response to the second ability.
August 2, 2011 12:05 p.m.
Phobophile says... #3
Those were my thoughts exactly Rustria. i think that this way of losing the game is the result of an ability that triggers when my life is at or over 20, rather than being state based. Hence it could be responded to before it resolves like any other ability.
if no one has any official rulings on this, or knows how it works better than I, i'll accept your answer and get back to deck building :D
August 2, 2011 12:13 p.m.
I still disagree to the statement that you can respond to losing the game.
Also, if you are continually responding to the third ability, and never letting it resolve, you can still only activate Immolating Souleater 's ability a finite number of times because you can only spend life on Phyrexian Mana as long as it would not give you 0 or negative life.
You could do this however... Pay 2 life for +1/0. You gain 4. Pay 2 life. In response the trigger, pay another 2 life. You now have two separate triggers, each gaining you 4 life. Only let the first resolve. You gain 4 life. Pay 2 life. In response to the trigger, pay another 2 life. See where this is going? You keep adding separate triggers so you can control your life gain, and pump up Immolating Souleater infinitely. Cast Fling , sacrificing your souleater, dealing infinite damage to your opponent.
August 2, 2011 12:17 p.m.
104.1. A game ends immediately when a player wins, when the game is a draw, or when the game is restarted.
August 2, 2011 12:20 p.m.
Losing the game happens instantaneously, the thing MAKING someone lose the game in this case though is a triggered ability, which goes on the stack and has to wait to resolve like anything else. This also means you should be able to activate Souleater as much as you want (allowing the life gain effect to happen when necessary) before Flinging the poor thing, all in response to the trigger.
Wakleon says... Accepted answer #1
Transcendence 's second ability never goes on to the stack. Winning and Losing the game are state based actions. When they happen, it's done.
I can't find the rules on it right now. But you wouldn't be able to, in response to taking lethal damage, cast Lightning Bolt killing you opponent. You've already lost. You have to have the foresight to cast Lightning Bolt and defeat your opponent before they defeat you. The same applies here.
August 2, 2011 11:44 a.m.