Trample + Deathtouch
Asked by daniferrito 11 years ago
Say I manage to get a creature with both trample and deathtouch. My oponent blocks it with something. Trample says that i can assing damage to the defending player after i assigned lethal damage to all blocking creatures. As 1 is alredy lethal damage, could i assign 1 damage to the creature, and all the rest to the player?
Felixlives says... #2
I have a question reguarding this question. Now say i block your deathtouch trampling 7/7 with my 5/6 indestructable. Since he wont die to deathtouch would trample need to asign at least 6 damage befor trample hits me? That would make sense. I thought of it like this trample dealt 1 deathtouch damage and checked if it was lethal damage to the creature, it was not so it must continue dealing damage.
October 28, 2013 2:13 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #3
Felixlives - Nope, it still works the same way. Indestructible doesn't change anything about the damage that's being dealt to it, it just changes what happens when a creature gets lethal damage marked on it. So the deathtouch trampler would still only need to assign 1 damage to the blocker.
The game as a whole never "looks forward" to see what the results of damage would be, it just cares about the damage assignment of that moment. It doesn't care what will or won't happen, it just cares that lethal damage as far as its narrow definition of "lethal damage" is concerned (i.e. "damage equal to the toughness or 1 point of deathtouch damage"). Even cards like Fog Bank crumble to it - Fog Bank won't die to a deathtouch trampler either, but you'll still be able to just assign 1 damage to it and keep going.
October 28, 2013 2:48 p.m.
HeroFallenVillain says... #5
That doesn't seem right to me. The assign 1 DT damage and move on seems based on the theory of killing something. How would a creature simply slip by another without killing it? I agree with Felix. It makes much more sense to have to endure the indestructibles toughness to get past him.
October 28, 2013 8:08 p.m.
Felixlives says... #6
Well deathtouch only needs to assign one damage to kill the creature so even tho he doesnt die from deathtouch lethal damage is still only 1 pt otherwise trample could not get through an indestructable creature and an indestructable 1/1 could block a 5/5 trampler
October 28, 2013 8:14 p.m.
HeroFallenVillain says... #7
But it seems the whole logic in applying 1 damage is because the creatures was killed. However the indestructible can withstand the damage, therefore he could withstand all of the DT's power. Meaning the one damage doesn't kill him, so essentially the DT would act like normal damage and the indestructible would block it.
In your example, the 1/1 indestructible can't stop any more than his 1 toughness will allow.
October 28, 2013 9:18 p.m.
HeroFallenVillain says... #8
I mean the whole basis is that DT only needs to assign one to KILL... It doesn't kill the indestructible.
October 28, 2013 9:20 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #9
The trick is, you need to separate the damage from what happens as a result of it.
Deathtouch doesn't "need to assign one damage to kill"; it means that "one point of damage from this source is considered 'lethal damage'", where "lethal damage" is itself a specific game concept.
So if one point of deathtouch damage = "lethal damage"
And trample means "excess of 'lethal damage' to player or planeswalker"
Then it becomes easy to see how this works.
The game doesn't care whether the creature will actually be put in a graveyard as a result. It doesn't look ahead to that sort of thing. In fact, at the point of damage assignment it doesn't care at all about any of the properties of the blocking creature(s) other than toughness, and when deathtouch is involved it doesn't even really care about that.
All the game is looking for is how much damage you're assigning to each creature; if that amount of damage is "lethal damage" then you can move on to the next creature in blocking order, or to the player/planeswalker behind them.
October 29, 2013 midnight
MagnorCriol says... #10
Another way to try to explain it (since I don't know that I'm conveying myself well) -
Abilities like Indestructible and damage prevention effects don't do anything to the damage being assigned.
--Prevention effects won't do anything until after damage is assigned, by nature, since there has to be damage to prevent in order to prevent it.
--Indestructible actually doesn't have any impact on damage whatsoever, it only exempts the permanent it's on from a few state-based actions. (Damage is actually still marked on the creature - if an Indestructible 5/5 is dealt 5 damage, then loses its Indestructibility somehow in that turn, it'll die!)
So given that those abilities don't do anything to affect damage assignment, you can take them out of the equation for the damage assignment step of combat, where Trample + Deathtouch is relevant.
October 29, 2013 12:09 a.m.
HeroFallenVillain says... #12
OK, so I did a lil in-depth research...
700.4. If a permanent is indestructible, rules and effects cant destroy it. (See rule 701.6, Destroy.) Such permanents are not destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the lethal-damage state-based action (see rule 704.5g). Rules or effects may cause an indestructible permanent to be sacrificed, put into a graveyard, or exiled.
701.6. Destroy
-701.6a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owners graveyard.
-701.6b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owners graveyard for any other reason, it hasnt been "destroyed."
-701.6c A regeneration effect replaces a destruction event. See rule 701.12, "Regenerate."704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
To me, this way makes MUCH more sense. The way you were presenting it made it sound VERY plausible, but I had hoped Magic would make more logical sense than that. They usually do, which is why I love this game so much. I apologize for seeming argumentative :P
October 29, 2013 12:54 a.m.
HeroFallenVillain says... #13
Now, I'm reading over it all again and I suppose I only proved the indestructible wasn't killed... I'm going to look a lil more lmao
October 29, 2013 1:27 a.m.
HeroFallenVillain says... #14
OK, OK... now I'm stumped... considering emailing WotC lmao...
Fair enough, DT would assign a redundant "lethal damage" to indestructible...but after looking up the rules on DT... I can't find anything that specifically states DT only has to assign one point to continue assigning damage to other sources! That part I believe is simply derived from the simple fact that that's the "normal" circumstance due to it killing the creature. Indestructible ignores the "lethal damage", even though, technically it IS placed...
...I'm still looking lmao
If someone else can link me to an official source that states this, I'd appreciate it
October 29, 2013 1:40 a.m.
MagnorCriol says... #15
So, trample says "assign lethal damage to this dude that's blocking me and I'll punch the player/planeswalker for the rest."
Deathtouch says "One damage is lethal."
Deathtouch plus trample say "Assign one damage to this dude that's blocking me and I'll punch the player/planeswaker for the rest."
It's specifically called out in the rules that it doesn't take in to account what's actually going to happen to that damage (see below), it just cares about the assignment.
Also, Indestructible doesn't make lethal damage redundant. It's still considered lethal damage. Indestructible just changes what happens when the state-based actions come around to clean up creatures with lethal damage marked on them.
Deathtouch CR entry:
Relevant here:
"702.2b: Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness. See rules 510.1c-d."
Trample CR entry:
Relevant here:
"702.19b: The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt."
Also relevant, the example from that same rule:
Example: A 6/6 green creature with trample is blocked by a 2/2 creature with protection from green. The attacking creature's controller must assign at least 2 damage to the blocker, even though that damage will be prevented by the blocker's protection ability. The attacking creature's controller can divide the rest of the damage as he or she chooses between the blocking creature and the defending player.
October 29, 2013 2:35 a.m.
HeroFallenVillain says... #16
Ah, you posted this @ 2:35amI posted the other thread @ about 2:10amThat was the info I was looking for :PThank you and sorry for the confusion
raithe000 says... Accepted answer #1
Yes, that is an interaction between trample and deathtouch. It's why Nylea, God of the Hunt plays so nicely with her Bow of Nylea .
October 28, 2013 9:35 a.m.