Timing question: Alchemist's Retrieval and Ral Zarek

Asked by CamraMaan 10 months ago

If Ral Zarek has seven loyalty on it and I [-7] it to flip five coins for extra turns, can I respond to the ultimate ability with Alchemist's Retrieval targeting Ral Zarek and return it to my hand before it dies, or is the [-7] going to remove it as an SBA tied to the payment to put it on the stack? My assumption is that it will be gone before I can respond, but I'm crossing my fingers I'm wrong. Thanks in advance!

Delphen7 says... #1

Since loyalty abilities are a subset of activated ability, you cannot respond to them paying the cost, but you can respond to the ability.

• 209.2: "An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if none of that permanent’s loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”"

Even if you bounce/destroy/exile/etc Ral Zarek, his ability's on the stack, and so would require different interaction (Stifle)

May 28, 2023 9:30 p.m.

dragonstryke58 says... Accepted answer #2

If a planeswalker has 0 loyalty, it is put to the graveyard as a state-based action. This happens before a player would gain priority.

In this case, if you used Ral Zarek's -7 ability and put him at 0 loyalty, he will be put into the graveyard for having 0 loyalty before you could target him with a bounce spell such as Alchemist's Retrieval. Do note that if Ral Zarek still had 1 loyalty after using his -7, he will not be put to the graveyard since he does not have 0 loyatly.

Relevant Comprehensive Rules:

704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 117, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority.

and

704.5i If a planeswalker has loyalty 0, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard.

May 29, 2023 6:27 a.m. Edited.

CamraMaan says... #3

Much appreciated! That's what I assumed would happen. Makes sense that you can only respond to the activated ability on the stack, at which point Ral is gone, no different than sacrificing a creature to pay an activated ability. Looking into building a Ral Zarek oathbreaker deck, reusing the [-7] ability as often as possible, so every little bit matters. Thanks again!

May 29, 2023 9:23 a.m.