so.... about ante....
Asked by koylucumert 2 years ago
for this question, assume that ante cards are legal to play
what is the ruling with minimum deck sizes and ante? ante cards say if you arent playing for ante remove this from your deck before starting. does my deck legal after doing so?
if it is still legal, can I in that case build a deck with 7 cards and 53 ante cards, draw a perfect hand and win every game?
if it isnt and I show upto a tournament with a deck that has ante cards, do we than HAVE to play for ante, since not doing so would make my deck illegal
TypicalTimmy says... #2
When you play for Ante, you remove a single card AT RANDOM from your deck and "exile" it into the Ante zone. So your 60 card deck becomes 59 playable, and 1 ante'd card. If you win, you win all of the ante'd cards.
So no, you can not make a deck of 60 and ante out 53 of them.
Also note there are (generally speaking) only deck size minimums, not maximums. I believe Draft is the exception at 40, and Commander at 100. But for example, you could theoretically have a 600 card Standard or Modern deck. Now tournament rules state your deck must be able to be shuffled without assistance, meaning you can't put them into a box and loosely shuffle them around. You also can't shuffle piles of 60 cards, then stack it all together in a random order.
But you could, say, bring a 70 card deck and shuffle that quite easily. Though you'd be at a terrible disadvantage.
So technically speaking you could do a 61 card deck and ante 1, giving you 60 to play with. Though you'd actually be better off doing 60 and playing with 59, which TECHNICALLY could be seen as cheating as your deck minimum is now below what it is required to be.
January 22, 2023 6:28 p.m. Edited.
There's kind of a contradiction in the question. "[A]ssume that ante cards are legal to play" doesn't work with the further condition "if you aren't playing for ante remove this from your deck before starting". If the ante cards are legal, then you don't need to remove them from your deck. If you aren't playing for ante (this includes every sanctioned format), then you can't have them in your deck to begin with.
The original text was intended to provide an option for "casual" play in the very early days. When the ante rules were removed and the mechanic discontinued, that line of text became meaningless.
If you have ante cards and want to use them, I suggest creating a cube around them. Since all the cards go back into the same box at the end of the session, you can have all the stakes of ante play without worrying about permanently losing cards.
January 22, 2023 8:31 p.m.
koylucumert says... #5
I think the question wasnt clear, so I will reformulate it. the question goes like this. lets say I have a 60 card deck, with 53 of them mentioning the ante. all cards that mention ante have this clause "if you arent playing for ante, remove this card from your deck before starting". so can I just say "lets not play for ante" and remove the 53 cards from my deck, leaving a perfect hand of 7?
January 23, 2023 10:11 a.m.
I suppose there's nothing strictly against the rules with that approach, but 1. it would only be accepted at the most casual tables and 2. it would only work once.
People who get what's going on might just laugh and tell you to get a real deck, people who don't understand ante would be confused, and some people might accuse you of cheating and leave/report you.
If nothing else, just mentioning ante before the match will get you some odd looks.
January 23, 2023 2:07 p.m.
Apologies for the double post, but I want to be clear:
This isn't exploiting an obscure loophole. Officially, ante isn't part of the M:tG rules. Using ante cards is illegal in any sanctioned format, and it's generally assumed that matches will not be played for ante unless all players explicitly agree to play for ante beforehand in a non-sanctioned match.
So, for this trick to work, you're either building a deck that is illegal by default, or you have to convince someone to play an ante match, then convince them to not actually play for ante.
January 23, 2023 2:37 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
Playing for Ante is an optional game variant, like Commander or Archenemy. Whether or not to play for Ante is a decision that gets made way before the game starts. If you're not playing for Ante, you can't have the cards in your deck. Combined with the rules describing what a player needs to play the game, you won't be able to do what you're describing.
100.2. To play, each player needs their own deck of traditional Magic cards, small items to represent any tokens and counters, and some way to clearly track life totals.
100.2a In constructed play (a way of playing in which each player creates their own deck ahead of time), each deck has a minimum deck size of 60 cards. A constructed deck may contain any number of basic land cards and no more than four of any card with a particular English name other than basic land cards. For the purposes of deck construction, cards with interchangeable names have the same English name (see rule 201.3).
407.1. Earlier versions of the Magic rules included an ante rule as a way of playing “for keeps.” Playing Magic games for ante is now considered an optional variation on the game, and it’s allowed only where it’s not forbidden by law or by other rules. Playing for ante is strictly forbidden under the Magic: The Gathering Tournament Rules (WPN.Wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents).
407.3. A few cards have the text “Remove [this card] from your deck before playing if you’re not playing for ante.” These are the only cards that can add or remove cards from the ante zone or change a card’s owner. When not playing for ante, players can’t include these cards in their decks or sideboards, and these cards can’t be brought into the game from outside the game.
January 23, 2023 4:58 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #9
Your question was plenty clear. I got pedantic about exactly how many ante cards could be in a normal deck since there are only 9. So following 4-of limits the maximum number of cards you could have in a deck that mention ante is 36. If you want to you could replace where I said "36" with "53".
To answer the questions in your original post in order:
If not playing for ante the ante cards can not count toward your minimum deck size.
Deck doesn't remain legal, so moot point.
You will have to add basic lands to get your deck up to the minimum deck size, there is no "forcing playing for ante" even in your hypothetical.
Gidgetimer says... #1
If you aren't playing for ante, the ante cards are illegal. So there is no scenario where you would have a legal decklist with the any of the 9 ante specific cards and then have to remove them.
If somehow this scenario did come up, the standard remedy for cards becoming illegal during a tournament or a deckbuilding problem like having too few cards is to replace the cards with basic lands. So you would have a deck consisting of 36 extra basics and whatever the 24 actually legal cards you showed up with were.
January 22, 2023 6:26 p.m.