Ordeals
Asked by wallsh 9 years ago
I have a question about ordeals, for example Ordeal of Heliod the card CLEARLY states that as soon as you declare an attack you get a +1 +1 counter, it does not say you only get the counter if you have less than 3. so explain this for me please:Favored Hoplite has 2 Ordeal of Heliod on him and he has 2 counters, I swing i should get 2 counters then both should trigger correct? I am being told that is not the case please explain why. Because magic 101 RTFC agrees with my argument. sorry if I seem hostile but this debate has been goin on for a while haha. thanks
ok thats what I thought, but I kept getting told that because there are 3 counters it doesn't add a 4th counter and it just does it's effect which makes no sense..is there anyway i can get a ruling or something?
June 20, 2014 10 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #3
Nothing in Ordeal of Heliod 's ability suggests that it only puts a counter on the creature if the creature has two or fewer counters. In order for that to be the case, the ability would need to be worded "Whenever enchanted creature attacks, if it has two or fewer +1/+1 counters on it, put a +1/+1 counter on it. Then if it has three or more +1/+1 counters on it, sacrifice Ordeal of Heliod."
This is not the case, however. The ability puts the counter on the creature, then checks to see if there are three or more +1/+1 counters on it.
Also, both abilities definitely resolve.
Relevant rules:
9/15/2013: The check of whether the enchanted creature has three or more +1/+1 counters on it happens as part of the resolution of the attack triggered ability. If the third +1/+1 counter is put on the enchanted creature any other way, you wont sacrifice the Ordeal until the next time the creature attacks.
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it's expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
June 20, 2014 10:07 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
I don't want to sound dickish since you understand this. So please don't think I'm talking down to you. Ordeals like all cards in magic do exactly what the Oracle text says no more, no less. The first ability triggers and does what it says. It puts a 1/1 counter in the enchanted creature. THEN if there are 3 OR MORE counters you sacrifice the ordeal.
June 20, 2014 10:35 a.m.
so in shortfirst ordeal ability goes on stack gives counter then checks for 3 then sacssecond ordeal goes on stack gives counter then checks for 3 and sacs?
June 20, 2014 10:37 a.m.
Gidgetimer my card shop is saying that it doesn't work the way I am saying so I am trying to get hard proof to bring for tonights FNM. they say that the first gives counter then the second just sacs because it has 3. I thought it should be a simple RTFC thing but nope
June 20, 2014 10:38 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
Both abilities go onto the stack at the same time because both abilities triggered since the last time a player received priority. Both of them will be waiting on the stack. The first will resolve and you'll give the creature a counter and sacrifice the Ordeal of Heliod . Ordeal of Heliod 's last ability triggers and goes on top of the stack. When it resolves, you gain 10 life.
Then, the second Ordeal of Heliod 's on-attack ability will resolve, and you'll give the creature a counter and sacrifice Ordeal of Heliod . Ordeal of Heliod 's last ability triggers and goes on top of the stack. When it resolves, you gain 10 life.
You'll end up with four counters total on the creature and an extra 20 life for yourself.
June 20, 2014 10:43 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
Tell them to read the card. That's basically what it comes down to. The sacrifice clause in the first triggered ability is embedded with another effect. The enchantment only sacrifices itself when that ability resolves; it isn't a separate ability that pops as soon as the creature hits three counters.
June 20, 2014 10:44 a.m.
I am keeping a copy of this link on my phone and am going to show it to the judge. if they keep refusing how the card works anyone have any other steps I can take? because this is suppose to be a "standard" tournament with prizes and etc.
June 20, 2014 10:47 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
An ability does what it says, no more and no less. The 2nd paragraph on Ordeal of Heliod is a single triggered ability. It triggers when the creature attacks, and as it resolves you follow all the given instructions in order. None of those instructions give a condition for not putting a counter on the enchanted creature.
June 20, 2014 10:55 a.m.
I appreciate the answers I will mark an answer now and bring this link to my FNM and if they refuse to go with the ruling I will start lighting things on fire.
June 20, 2014 11:57 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
Ok I see the problem, you thought it was a simple RTFC thing because it is a simple RTFC thing and they thought that the card didn't mean what it said because they are brain damaged. It surprises and disgusts me that card shops would make such a bad mistake involving simple rules. Is the judge at these events an actual DCI judge or just a guy who makes rulings to end arguments? Because the person I learned to play from is a Level 1 judge and he would be appalled that any judge could mess up something this simple.
If they want to argue I guess you could bring up rule 608.2e:
608.2e Some spells and abilities have multiple steps or actions, denoted by separate sentences or clauses, that involve multiple players. In these cases, the choices for the first action are made in APNAP order, and then the first action is processed simultaneously. Then the choices for the second action are made in APNAP order, and then that action is processed simultaneously, and so on. See rule 101.4
Although if they can mess up the wording on the Ordeals I'm sure they will mess up the more complex wording in the comprehensive rules with its subclauses and complex wording. As opposed to the straight forward 2 complete clause of the ordeals that says the attack ability, although a single ability, does two things in order. You put a counter on. You check to see if there are more than 3 counters and if so sacrifice it. Don't even get me started on the fact that the life gain is a separate ability that triggers upon sacrifice and is not directly related to the attack ability.
June 20, 2014 12:15 p.m.
he is just the store owners kid and has always been the judge and he is an idiot...for the longest time he told all of us if you didn't untap something during upkeep it stayed tap
June 20, 2014 12:16 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #14
Well technically if you resolve upkeep triggers and draw a card you "skipped" your untap step but the untap step isn't optional so the way it would be resolved is to roll the game back to the untap step and start again from there. but for the sake of convenience people just untap when they realized they didn't untap before upkeep triggers, and only douchebags try to say "no it stays tapped". Its like this one guy I used to play with that would ask for targets for an Oblivion Ring on the stack because he read far enough to know that if the person declares a target during casting that it can still be countered since it hasn't yet resolved but didn't read far enough to see that ASKING for a target was short cutting to O-Ring having resolved and the ETB being put on the stack.
GreatSword says... #1
Yes, both will trigger at the same time. The first one will then resolve, give the Hoplite a +1/+1 counter, then check for 3 counters and sacrifice itself. This will trigger the 2nd triggered ability, gaining you 10 life. Then the other Ordeal will resolve and do the same thing, adding the 4th +1+/1 counter.
June 20, 2014 9:40 a.m.