Multiple defenders
Asked by Tekel_Brighteyes 13 years ago
I've always gotten confused on how exactly combat works when more than one character defends against an attacker. And the guy I was playing with the other night didn't understand a thing he was doing. So we both got confused on his strategy. I would love any help anyone could give me.
I attacked with a 10/14 with trample along with several other creatures.
He blocked my 10/14 with a 7/7 and a 3/3. He also used the 3/3 to block my 1/1 because it had the ability to block more than one creature. So my question is, how does the damage play out? Oh, and who decides where the damage goes?
Again, thank you for any and all help.
Rhadamanthus says... #2
You assign the combat damage from your creatures simultaneously (that is, not in any particular order), and all that matters is whether or not you have a legal assignment at the end. The attacking player decides how attacking creatures assign combat damage, and the defending player decides how blocking creatures assign combat damage. If multiple creatures are blocking an attacker, the attacking player declares the damage assignment order in the Declare Blockers step. When the game gets to the Combat Damage step, the first creature in the order has to be assigned lethal before the second creature is assigned any damage, and so on down the line. If a blocker is blocking multiple attackers, then the defending player declares the damage assignment order in a similar way.
Section 510 of the rules is about the Combat Damage step, and Rule 510.c reads in part (emphasis mine): "When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt."
So when you're deciding how to assign combat damage from your 10/14, you also take into account the fact that your opponent's 3/3 is blocking your 1/1. Because the 1/1 has to assign 1 combat damage to the 3/3, you can have your 10/14 trampler assign 2 to the 3/3, 7 to the 7/7, and 1 to your opponent. In this case, it doesn't really matter where you positioned the 3/3 and 7/7 in the damage assignment order, unless your opponent decided to pump them up before damage was dealt. It does matter where your opponent positioned your 10/14 and 1/1 in his assignment order, because if your opponent put the 10/14 "in front" of his 3/3, he won't be able to assign any combat damage to the 1/1.
April 3, 2012 3:59 p.m.
So basically, if you both play the best way possible, everything dies but the 10/14, and your opponent takes 1 damage.
April 3, 2012 7:44 p.m.
Unless you want to do as much damage to your opponent as possible. In this case, assign 1 damage from your 1/1 to the 3/3, then assign two more from your 10/14 to the 3/3, then assign 8 points of trample damage to opponent.
April 3, 2012 7:48 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
You can't do that. You have to assign lethal damage to every creature blocking a trampler before you can assign any of it to the defending player or planeswalker.
April 3, 2012 7:55 p.m.
Tekel_Brighteyes says... #6
Thank you guys so much. Though I'll admit, I didn't understand a bit of it till I got to Rhadamanthus's last paragraph. <:)
So just to make sure I understand this correctly. Because my opponent has 2 defenders guarding 2 of my creatures, the one that is blocking 2 of them, he gets to decide where the attack points go?
And with my attacker I get to decide where I want his points to be divided between his defenders and only because my attacker had trample?
April 4, 2012 1:19 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
Each player chooses where his or her own damage goes. You choose where your attacking creatures assign their damage, but you do NOT choose where your opponent's defending creatures assign their damage.
If an attacking creature you control is blocked by one or more blocking creatures, you decide what order you will deal your damage to those creatures.
April 4, 2012 1:30 a.m.
so just to build on this and a question related to it.
If I have a deathtouch creature with 2 power, and is blocked by 2 creatures (lets say 2 3/3's) I can assign one point of damage to each, because 1 point of deathtouch damage is lethal?
April 4, 2012 3:43 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
Yes, that's exactly how it works. Any nonzero amount of damage from a source with deathtouch is lethal damage.
April 4, 2012 3:47 p.m.
ok, and this begs the follow up question, what if your creature has deathtouch and trample? Can you 1 pt each creature and trample the balance, or is there another rule in effect for this?
April 4, 2012 3:55 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
That's exactly how it works, which is why some Kessig Wolf Run decks run Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine. Being able to kill every blocker and still trample almost all of your power over is a huge advantage.
April 4, 2012 3:58 p.m.
Tekel_Brighteyes says... #12
Ok, I'm confused again. I thought deathtouch only went into effect if the creature wasn't killed during combat since the combat damage takes place at the same time? Wouldn't the creatures still be there till after the damage is resolved therefore meaning trample wouldn't go through?
btw, I've learned so much from just this one question. Thank you everyone.
April 4, 2012 11:37 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
Deathtouch is a static ability that means any amount of damage dealt by the source with deathtouch is lethal. You take deathtouch into account when you assign combat damage.
You assign enough damage so that it would be lethal, meaning a deathtoucher only has to assign 1 damage to each of its blockers. If that creature also has trample, it may assign the rest to the defending player/planeswalker.
April 5, 2012 1:59 a.m.
Tekel_Brighteyes says... #14
I'm sorry, but I'm still confused. Please forgive me. But I thought trample would only go into effect once the defender was dead and the extra damage carried over? But deathtouch wouldn't go into effect till at the end of combat.
lol I swear I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I know this is going to come up soon in a game I'll be playing and I want to make sure I have it right.
April 6, 2012 8:22 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #15
That's how trample damage used to work a long time ago (before the 6th Edition rules update), but it's handled differently now. As we've been explaining, trample damage to a player is determined during damage assignment.
A legal damage assignment with trample involved is to have at least lethal damage assigned to each blocking creature, and then any damage left over can be assigned to the player. Because any nonzero amount of damage from a source with deathtouch is lethal, 1 damage to each blocker and the rest to the player is a legal damage assignment for an attacking creature with deathtouch and trample.
April 6, 2012 9:43 a.m.
Tekel_Brighteyes says... #16
Oh, now I understand. So as long as lethal damage is assigned first, the remaining damage goes through. Thank you everyone for your help. :)
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
509.2. Second, for each attacking creature thats become blocked, the active player announces that creatures damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures blocking it in an order of that players choice. (During the combat damage step, an attacking creature cant assign combat damage to a creature thats blocking it unless each creature ahead of that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesnt use the stack.
509.3. Third, for each blocking creature, the defending player announces that creatures damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures its blocking in an order of that players choice. (During the combat damage step, a blocking creature cant assign combat damage to a creature its blocking unless each creature ahead of that blocked creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesnt use the stack.
In accordance with the two rules above, each player chooses where the damage goes for each of his or her creatures.
702.17b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. The attacking creature's controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can't assign any damage to the player or planeswalker it's attacking.
You announce the damage assignment order for the attackers. The DAO for the 10/14 can be either your opponent's 7/7 and then his 3/3, or his 3/3 and then his 7/7. In this case, the end result is the same. If you assign just lethal damage to each creature, you may choose to have 1 damage from your 10/14 trample over.
Your opponent announces the damage assignment order for the blockers. If the DAO for the 3/3 is your 1/1 and then your 10/14, your 1/1 will be killed. If it is your 10/14 and then your 1/1, your 1/1 will live because a creature cannot be assigned combat damage unless each creature ahead of it in the DAO has been assigned lethal damage. Thus all of the 3/3's power would be forced to go to the 10/14 and nothing would be left to hit the 1/1.
April 3, 2012 3:48 p.m.