Morph, stack and priority
Asked by zpoint 9 years ago
Hi,
Could you please confirm/disprove my understanding about morph/manifest, stack and priority? E.g. I have manifested Dutiful Attendant on the battlefield face-down, it's my turn, first mane phase. I cast Bone Splinters to destroy an opponent's creature and sacrifice face-down Dutiful Attendant, pass the priority to opponent. He doesn't respond and pass the priority back to me. Now Bone Splinters will resolve, but just before that I turn my Dutiful Attendant face-up, so it's ability will trigger and I can return a creature from my graveyard to my hand. As far as my opponent never gets priority after I turn Dutiful Attendant face-up and before Bone Splinters resolves, he can't destroy my Dutiful Attendant with Ultimate Price. Is it correct?
Thank you
EpicFreddi says... #2
It doesn't work this way because the additional cost of bone spliter is to sacrifice a creature. You had to flip the attendend befor casting the spell.
December 18, 2015 9:17 a.m.
Programmer_112 says... Accepted answer #3
Firstly, sacrificing a creature is a cost of Bone Splinters, so nobody gets priority until after your dude is dead. You can't unmorph, your opponent can't Ultimate Price. However, if Bone Splinters said something like "destroy target creature you control and target creature you don't control," the answer would still be no. After any player casts a spell, that player gets priority. If that player passes priority, then the opponent gets priority. If the opponent passes priority, then a round of priority has been passed, and the spell resolves. Thus, you can't cast Morph after your opponent passes priority, because you don't get priority until after the spell resolves. You are also incorrect about the Ultimate Price interaction. Morph is a game action, so it doesn't use the stack, but it still does priority stuff. After game actions are dealt with, the active player (you) gets priority. Presumably, you pass. Now, your opponent gets priority. If they pass, then both players will have passed on an empty stack, and our hypothetical spell will resolve. However, if they cast Ultimate Price, then Ultimate Price resolves before our hypothetical spell, which would fizzle due to having illegal targets.
December 18, 2015 9:20 a.m.
It's important to remember that special actions that don't use the stack can still only be activated when you have priority.
Programmer_112 is correct in their explanations, but the both of you should consider that morph isn't involved in this scenario at all. It might seem like a little detail, but they're fundamentally different abilities that both happen to turn a card face-down and possibly back up.
December 18, 2015 10:32 a.m.
Thank you for the explanation, now I see my mistake. So the right order is to flip Dutiful Attendant, pass the priority, my opponent can Ultimate Price it. If he also pass then I can cast Bone Splinters and now my Dutiful Attendant is already sacrificed, so it can't be targeted by removal spell. Is it correct now? (P.S. Sorry if I posted in the wrong forum, I'm new here.)
December 18, 2015 10:34 a.m.
EpicFreddi says... #6
No, you flip the card, priority stays on your side since morph doesn't use the stack. then you cast the bone splinter, sac the dude, both bonesplinter and his ability go on the stack and then you pass priority.
December 18, 2015 10:57 a.m.
That poses a problem, because you can't cast Bone Splinters in response to Ultimate Price, as it's a sorcery. What you can do instead, though, is turn the Attendant face-up for 
, which doesn't use the stack. As soon as that's handled, you cast Bone Splinters (your opponents don't get priority until this point to cast Ultimate Price). In order to successfully cast Bone Splinters, you have to pay and sacrifice a creature, which can't be responded to either, as you're paying a cost. It's ability will trigger because it went to the graveyard from play, but not be put on the stack just yet. By the time Bone Splinters becomes cast and is put on the stack, on top of which the Attendant's ability will be put and resolve before Bone Splinters will.
December 18, 2015 11:07 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #8
The latest you can un-morph/un-manifest your Dutiful Attendant is before you even cast the spell Bone Splinters. Your opponent cannot respond to this because un-morphing does not use the stack. This is why Voidmage Apprentice can counter spells with split second.
Once you announce you're casting the spell, you must sacrifice the Dutiful Attendant as an additional cost. This effect or the creature at this time cannot be interacted with in any way.
Only when the payments are made, including sacrificing your creature, can your opponent respond with Ultimate Price. However, the intended target, Dutiful Attendant is already dead so it would be pointless.
Note: if you left the creature as a morph and didn't sacrifice it, your opponent couldn't cast Ultimate Price on it because it has no color (hence not a mono-colored creature).
Note: the triggered ability from Dutiful Attendant will not go on the stack until Bone Splinters resolves fully.
December 18, 2015 12:22 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #9
Rulings to help clarify:
702.36e Any time you have priority, you may turn a face-down permanent you control with a morph ability face up. This is a special action; it doesnt use the stack (see rule 115). To do this, show all players what the permanents morph cost would be if it were face up, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. (If the permanent wouldnt have a morph cost if it were face up, it cant be turned face up this way.) The morph effect on it ends, and it regains its normal characteristics. Any abilities relating to the permanent entering the battlefield dont trigger when its turned face up and dont have any effect, because the permanent has already entered the battlefield.
115.3. If a player takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
This is a ruling taken from the Gatherer website off Bone Splinters:
4/15/2013 Players can only respond once this spell has been cast and all its costs have been paid. No one can try to destroy the creature you sacrificed to prevent you from casting this spell.
December 18, 2015 12:40 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
Note that the triggered ability from Dutiful Attendant will be placed onto the stack before Bone Splinters resolves, not after. It will happen after the casting process and before players can respond to Bone Splinters.
December 18, 2015 12:43 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #11
Edit: My final note is incorrect. Both the spell Bone Splinters and the triggered ability from Dutiful Attendant go on the stack at the same time, because at the point of triggering, the spell has not even been put on the stack yet. You may choose in what order to put them on the stack, and therefore in what order they will resolve.
December 18, 2015 12:45 p.m.
@Raging_Squiggle: The last part about the triggered ability not going on the stack until Bone Splinters resolves is wrong - it will be put on the stack after Bone Splinters becomes cast, before it resolves.
112.3c. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. (...) Whenever the trigger event occurs, the ability is put on the stack the next time a player would receive priority (...)
Also, morph and manifest not using the stack is not the reason why Voidmage Apprentice can counter spells with Split-Second (because special actions that don't use the stack don't allow you to activate them at a special time, as explained by me above). The reason is that Split-Second prevents spells from being cast and abilities from being activated while a spell with Split-Second is on the stack. Because a special ability is neither of those, you can turn Voidmage Apprentice face-up in response, which will trigger it's ability and allow you to counter the Split-Second spell.
CharlesMandore says... #1
I think this goes in Q&A.
As far as I understand, once the morph resolves, the creature is still a legal target. The stack checks one ability at a time.
I will admit that I'm not sound on all of this, so another's input could valuable.
December 18, 2015 9:15 a.m. Edited.