Is the scry CMC decrease from Elminster's static ability cumulative?
Asked by Eareph 1 year ago
The way the static reads on Elminster could go either way and I'm just thinking myself in circles at this point. This will absolutely dictate the direction of deck building and if it isn't cumulative then I have to make some changes.
So, the total isn't cumulative, technically, but each trigger creates a cost reduction that will be applied to the next instant or sorcery and all the CMC reductions will be applied to that spell?
One of the things that I was thinking while reading the effect was that it creates a single effect that waits for the next instant or sorcery, but if you scry again it is overwritten. Like you scry 1, 2, and 3, but instead of having the CMC reduced by 6, it's actually only reduced by 3 since that was the last scry value.
November 13, 2022 5:15 p.m.
I've seen conflicting answers online where some people play it as if it's cumulative, while others state that it isn't cumulative and make a point of, well, pointing that out. I either don't know where to find any rulings on this card, or there aren't any that I can find...
November 13, 2022 5:18 p.m.
To build on what Gidgetimer already said, here is the rule that is on point, with the relevant part in red. Note that it applies "all cost reductions" when casting a spell, including all of Elminster's different triggers.
601.2f The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
November 13, 2022 5:28 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #6
I don't think there are any rulings on it, but each instance of the trigger resolving creates a cost reduction that is independent of each other and independent of Elminster. So yes, I guess not technically cumulative since you will have multiple separate cost reductions applying to the same spell, not one large cost reduction. I think that the people pointing out that it isn't actually cumulative are just being pedants. You can treat it as if it is. Each will apply to the same spell. Any extra will not be able to be used on further spells later in the turn.
I can understand what was being assumed to happen with the overwriting, I can't understand the underlying logic enough to provide a rule that would dispel the notion. I would like to provide a parallel that might make how it works in reality more clear. You can think of the Elminster cost reductions like the tokens from Alela, Artful Provocateur. Each one is distinct and creating a new one does not get rid of the old one. The only thing that gets rid of the old one is when you do something to get rid of it (cast a spell).
November 13, 2022 5:40 p.m.
Yeah, it might not have a ruling because it's only ambiguous if you don't know how triggered abilities creating static effects, and cost reductions work. That is, the alternative requires some kind of rules around keeping track of the most recent effect for multiple triggers without it saying so, and those just don't exist!
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #1
It is cumulative. Each cost reduction created by the triggered ability on Elminster creates an effect that waits for the next instant or sorcery to be cast and then reduces the cost of that spell. Each reduction is independent and will apply to spell with the effect of reducing the cost by an amount that is the sum of all reduction effects.
I am a bit curious how the logic would go for them to not be cumulative.
November 13, 2022 3:47 p.m.