Going to a draw via infinite loop of non-mandatory actions?
Asked by becks16 4 years ago
Say player 1 has infinite mana (perhaps through Grand Architect + Pili-Pala ) and a Masticore and player 2 has Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant . P1 shoots sasaya with the masticore, P2 uses sasaya to reveal in response, P1 shoots sasaya in response, etc etc. What actually happens?
Per rules, the only way a game can end are here: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Ending_the_game#Rules
104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
Since both actions are optional, what happens? I can see 2 options, one of the players decides not to activate their ability and the stack then resolves, or both players decide on a mutual draw. However, no rules I can find say what happens when neither player backs down or agrees to draw. In tournament, the game could go to time? But other than that I'm not sure.
Gidgetimer says... #2
There is also the fact that "infinite" Mana is not an actual thing. It is simply convenient short hand for an absurdly large amount. This means that eventually player 1 will have to make more Mana and most infinite Mana loops contain at least one action that is not a Mana ability. So, depending on the Mana loop player 2 might also be able to respond to flip Sasaya during the Mana loop.
November 13, 2019 12:57 p.m.
Gidgetimer you are right about that, however the example I gave is a mana ability loop.
November 13, 2019 1:51 p.m.
Rhadamanthus does this rule apply regarding, "the same game state", since the stack is actually being added to?
November 13, 2019 2:52 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
Yes. Even though more activated abilities are being added to the stack each time, the game isn't advancing in any way. It's stuck in a repeated loop of voluntary actions. A game state with 300 Masticore activations on the stack and 100 Sasaya activations on the stack is indistinguishable from one with 3 Masticore activations and 1 Sasaya activation.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
The rules that cover this situation are in the "Taking Shortcuts" section (720). Specifically, this one:
720.3 Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue.
So either Player 1 or Player 2 (depending on whose turn it is in your example) has to stop responding.
November 13, 2019 11:16 a.m. Edited.