Flayer of the Hatebound
Asked by formaldehydeface 13 years ago
Okay. This post will need a bit of a setup so please bear with me.
Flayer of the Hatebound has Undying. This means when he dies, he "returns" to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on him, as per the text on his card.
His second ability says "Whenever Flayer of the Hatebound or another creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard, that creature deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player."
Consider now the two cards Torpor Orb and Grafdigger's Cage. Both of them deal with creatures "entering the battlefield". Neither of them say "return".
I emailed Wizards about the difference between "enter" and "return", asking them if it really mattered, since either way the creature in question is going from one zone to the other. They told me that Torpor Orb (and therefor Grafdigger's Cage, under the same logic) says "enter" and not "return", so Undying's effects still trigger. They get the counter, they come back, blah blah blah.
Taking this logic, how then does Flayer of the Hatebound work? Because his second ability reads "enters" and not "returns". Did anyone buy the Monstrous Surprise deck? It didn't come with a Havengul Lich or an Unburial Rites. In fact, he was the foil featured on the front; the deck was meant to deal damage to opponents with his ability as your Undying creatures came back with their +1/+1 counters.
Bottom line: why is it that the Flayer gets a pass and the Orb/Cage don't? Shouldn't Undying read "re-enters the battlefield"? Or Flayer read "when a creature returns to the battlefield"? Or better yet, shouldn't the two be synonymous?
Epochalyptik says... #2
While it is true that the wording of some effects can be slightly inaccurate at times, the general benefits of the standardized phrasing system outweigh the costs. They manage to encompass the widest range of common situations and applications with a minimum of words and confusion.
March 14, 2012 9:49 a.m.
formaldehydeface says... #3
I take it too literally because if I have either an Orb or a Cage out and I see a creature Undie and "return", I want to know if I can keep the counter on it or not, and if I can have the Flayer do damage or not. I completely understand the mechanics, and what the Orb and Cage do (see how I actually typed out what the wording was on each one?), but Wizards told me specifically that the two words are different. While it all makes sense to us, in all technicality, they're different. Which makes Flayer's second ability utterly useless.
Also, your logic makes no sense. Why in the world would Torpor Orb dealing with ETB not do something that the Cage's text of ETB do? You said Undying causes a creature to enter the battlefield, but that right there is the problem; Undying reads that it returns to the battlefield, and that's what Wizards told me (and what everyone online agrees) is the difference.
March 14, 2012 10 a.m.
formaldehydeface says... #5
Okay. So then why does the counter stay? Whether it enters in one form or another, it still enters. Right? It enters with a counter after it dies, but IT STILL ENTERS.
I'm so confused it's not even funny anymore.
March 14, 2012 10:13 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
It does not enter. Grafdigger's Cage's effect prevents it from entering.
And if it could enter, nothing interferes with the counter being placed on it.
March 14, 2012 10:16 a.m.
formaldehydeface says... #7
I'm so frustrated I'm about to cry. I'm going to just give up and not use the Orb or the Cage because none of this makes any sense, and just gets more confusing the more anyone explains it to me. Undying enters and has an ETB triggered ability, Orb prevents triggered abilities from entering, but somehow the Orb fails to prevent the ability. Okay, nonsensical logic accepted. We're done here.
March 14, 2012 10:21 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
Undying does not have an ETB triggered ability. I will walk you through exactly what Flayer of the Hatebound says.
"Whenever Flayer of the Hatebound or another creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard, that creature deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player."
This is a triggered ability that triggers when a creature ETBs from the graveyard. It triggers only when Flayer or another creature both enters the battlefield and did so from the graveyard and not another zone.
"Undying (When this creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.)"
This is a triggered ability that triggers when Flayer dies, meaning it triggers when Flayer is in the graveyard. When it resolves, Flayer enters the battlefield and has a +1/+1 counter placed on it. The counter is place on Flayer as a replacement effect. The only triggered ability is undying itself.
March 14, 2012 10:29 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
If you'd like further explanation or don't understand something in particular, you only have to ask.
March 14, 2012 10:30 a.m.
formaldehydeface says... #10
Nah someone somewhere else answered it in a simple enough way for my tired mind to understand :c Thanks for trying. And sorry if I frustrated you back~
Epochalyptik says... #1
I think you're confused because you're taking semantics too literally. "Return" is used in reference to putting a card that was in a specific zone (or at least assumed to be in that zone) back into that zone from its current one. "Return to the battlefield" and "return to its owner's hand" are examples.
"Entering the battlefield" is something that any and every permanent does. ETB refers to coming into play from ANY zone in the game, whether it be hand, stack, library, exile, graveyard, etc.
When you return something to the battlefield, it enters the battlefield because it was coming from another zone.
Now Torpor Orb
stops effects from triggering if they deal with creature ETB events. Undying is not an ETB event, it is a replacement effect modifying how a creature enters the battlefield.
Grafdigger's Cage
specifically says that creatures cannot enter the battlefield from the graveyard. Undying would cause a creature card to enter the battlefield from the graveyard, so Cage shuts down undying.
March 14, 2012 9:46 a.m.