"Fighting" and the stack
Asked by Emzed 13 years ago
If i put Prey Upon (or any other "fight" spell or ability) on the stack, targeting creature A (my creature) and creature B (opponent's creature) and my opponent responds by killing creature A (with a Doom Blade or any other spot removal), what happens? Prey Upon is on the stack and will resolve, but it lost one of its two targets. I know spells only fizzle if all of their targets have become illegal, but in this case there is a critical interaction between the two targets going on. Is creature B still dealt damage equal to the last known power of creature A?
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #3
Under normal circumstances, Epochalyptik's answer would be correct, but the Comprehensive Rules entry for Fight includes the following:
701.10b If a creature instructed to fight is no longer on the battlefield or is no longer a creature, no damage is dealt. If a creature is an illegal target for a resolving spell or ability that instructs it to fight, no damage is dealt.
April 24, 2012 12:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
Interesting; I was unaware that fight had its own entry for such a circumstance.
April 24, 2012 1:34 p.m.
Thank you Rhadamanthus! This finally seems to be the correct answer. Related question: What about ' first ability? It's basically the same thing as fighting but doesn't use the keyword because Garruk is a Planeswalker and not a creature. When he uses his ability on my creature, can i save it by killing him with Incinerate? Or does my creature still get the 3 damage?
April 24, 2012 1:58 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
In the case of , you don't even have to go to LKI, because the results of the ability aren't dependent on any of Garruk's characteristics. The ability says 3 damage, and doesn't say it's dependent on Garruk still being on the battlefield (like Durkwood Tracker, etc.), so it resolves and deals 3 damage.
@Epochalyptik: Yeah, I get the feeling it was put there to avoid the natural "that's BS!" reaction from a person who isn't experienced enough to understand all about how LKI works.
On a related note, Fight would totally be flip-the-table level BS if it didn't have that sub-rule, considering all the flicker stuff in Avacyn Restored.
April 24, 2012 2:02 p.m.
GoblinsInc says... #7
Your creature still takes 3. Removing the source of the ability will not counter it. This is not related to the fight mechanic, even if it seems similar
April 24, 2012 2:04 p.m.
GoblinsInc says... #8
Epoch. If I recall correctly, 608.2b is essentially why fight does cause anything to deal damage if a creature it targeted is now illegal. Having a section under fight adds clarity though.
April 24, 2012 2:14 p.m.
Most other things use LKI as Epoch described. For example, will take damage equal to the targetted creature's power, even if that creature is removed from the battlefield prior to the resolution of the ability.
Fight is unique in this respect. I am going to check CR right now and make sure LKI actually applies to Garruk's ability...
608.2g
If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that's become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if it's in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it's no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object's last known information. See rule 112.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it's the object as it existsor as it most recently existedthat does it, not the ability.
Seems to apply. Fight is specific with the rule that was quoted earlier, that it DOESN'T look for LKI in this case. I believe it may be because the creature (object) itself is doing the damage...
April 24, 2012 5:03 p.m.
GoblinsInc says... #10
It isn't so much because the creature is dealing the damage, but that the spell is trying to make an object perform an action (deal damage) and the target is illegal, causing prey upon to be unable to make the object perform the action.
April 24, 2012 6:50 p.m.
Hm. So actually would not use LKI, because the creature would have to deal damage, and since it is no longer on the battlefield, it cannot deal damage.
April 24, 2012 7:20 p.m.
KorApprentice says... #12
Well, if the creature targeted by 's ability is removed before the ability begins to resolve, then the ability will look for its target upon resolution and fizzle because that target is no longer on the battlefield. There is no point during that interaction that calls for LKI, it is a targeted ability and thus requires at least one of its targets to be legal for it to resolve.
Epochalyptik says... #1
If an ability needs information from an object that has changed zones, that object's last known information is used. Creature A is no longer on the battlefield, but it doesn't need to be. Once the ability is on the stack, it doesn't care about what happens to the targets unless both of them become illegal. Creature A can still deal the fight damage and the game will be using its LKI for that purpose.
April 24, 2012 12:03 p.m.