Endless Evil and Transforming Cards (Thing in the Ice)
Asked by UltimateRoxas40 1 year ago
I think this works, but I wanted to get a more general consensus.
Step one would be to have Thing in the Ice Flip in play, and enchant it with Endless Evil.
Step two would be to wait for my next upkeep, where I create a 1/1 token copy of Thing in the Ice Flip. It would enter with the four Ice counters, since the 'create a token' is technically ETB (?).
Step three would be to play enough instances/sorceries to remove the Ice counters, causing them to transform. Since the rules changed with March of the Machine, tokens can transform if they are able/copying a permanent that can transform.
Step four would be to have a growing number of Thing in the Ice Flip/Awoken Horror Flip's? And they would 'regain' their proper power/toughness, since only the one side was designated as a 1/1?
Is my reasoning correct for this? I think it is, but I'm not a judge haha.
Rhadamanthus says... #2
The token copies would still be 1/1 after they transform. There aren't any carve-outs in the rules for copying or for DFCs that say alternative characteristics given by a copy effect would only apply to the characteristics of one face. They would apply to the characteristics of both faces.
January 11, 2024 noon
wallisface says... #3
It’s interesting that I can’t see any explicit rules on the matter. I do believe Rhadamanthus is correct here, but the closest ruling I can see from wotc is C.R. 707.8a, and 707.9, which are specifically dealing with face down/up permanents. While those rules should be transferable, i’m just surprised wotc haven’t actually spelled-out a rule on the matter.
For reference C.R. 707.8a, 707.9 reads:
707.8 As a face-down permanent is turned face up, its copiable values revert to its normal copiable values. Any effects that have been applied to the face-down permanent still apply to the face-up permanent. Any abilities relating to the permanent entering the battlefield don’t trigger and don’t have any effect, because the permanent has already entered the battlefield.
707.9 If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.
January 11, 2024 1:27 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
Those rules are for the "face up / face down" status and aren't really transferable here. The face down status actually changes what a permanent's copiable values are, but double-faced cards can only have the face down status if an effect specifically puts them onto the battlefield face down (like Manifest, for example). Otherwise, they can't be turned face down.
January 11, 2024 1:48 p.m.
wallisface says... #5
Rhadamanthus yeah i’m aware. This is just the closest ruling i could find even remotely resembling this interaction.
Do you know of another ruling which does a better job of answering this?
January 11, 2024 2:13 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #6
Not specifically. Like you said earlier, the current CR document doesn't seem to have an example highlighting a situation like this. The closest clear statement I can find is actually in the "Interaction of Continuous Effects" section that defines the system of Layers used to determine an object's characteristics:
613.1. The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it.
613.1a Layer 1: Rules and effects that modify copiable values are applied.
The situation here with the token copy is technically covered just by 613.1, but I included 613.1a as a reinforcement of the concept.
January 11, 2024 3:03 p.m.
UltimateRoxas40 says... #7
Thanks y'all! I appreciate the clarification on this situation. I'm a little sad I can't make an army of 6/7 Awoken Horrors haha.
wallisface says... #1
This all reads correctly to me. However note that when the creature enchanted by Endless Evil becomes an Awoken Horror Flip, the tokens it creates will also be Awoken Horror Flips, which by default will be 1/1s.
January 10, 2024 8:30 p.m.