Duplicant targeting a mutated creature
Asked by doodkyle 3 years ago
If my opponent has Otrimi, the Ever-Playful mutated on top of Temur Sabertooth and I cast Duplicant targeting otrimi, which card is used to determine the power and toughness of duplicant. Duplicant says the last creature exiled with it, but as far as I can tell both cards are exiled together as one card, then become two separate cards when they land in the exile zone.
TheRealSpecialK says... #2
Here is the more detailed answer:
If Duplicant read "Duplicant has the power, toughness, and creature type of the creature card exiled with it" then normally you would actually add everything together - so it would have all creature types and the total power and toughness of the cards combined. This is due to the following rule:
607.3. If, within a pair of linked abilities, one ability refers to a single object as “the exiled card,” “a card exiled with [this card],” or a similar phrase, and the other ability has exiled multiple cards (usually because it was copied), the ability refers to each of the exiled cards. If that ability asks for any information about the exiled card, such as a characteristic or converted mana cost, it gets multiple answers. If these answers are used to determine the value of a variable, the sum of the answers is used. If that ability performs any actions on “the” card, it performs that action on each exiled card. If that ability performs any actions on “a” card, the controller of the ability chooses which card is affected.
However, Duplicant reads, ""Duplicant has the power, toughness, and creature type of the LAST creature card exiled with it." That one word makes a huge difference. This now falls under the following rule:
613.7k If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
Because Duplicant is explicitly looking at the last card exiled with it, it can only see one card. Using the rule above, the player who controls the mutated creature gets to decide the timestamp of their cards, so they get to decide what the last card exiled with Duplicant is.
That might make things more confusing, but it is the fullness of the answer. Let me know if you have any more questions.
November 16, 2020 6:28 p.m.
dragonstryke58 says... #3
Actually, the controller of Duplicant's ability chooses the timestamp order of the cards exiled. Duplicant then uses the card with the most recent timestamp.
Per Gatherer Oracle Rulings:
8/7/2020:If a melded permanent or a merged permanent is exiled by Duplicant’s triggered ability, that ability’s controller chooses the relative timestamp of the exiled cards. Duplicant looks at the information of the one with the latest timestamp.
November 16, 2020 6:29 p.m.
TheRealSpecialK says... #4
So to clarify my first answer - your opponent gets to decide, but they can decide between Otrimi, the Ever-Playful and Temur Sabertooth. They will likely choose the worse of the two, so you will most likely end up with a 4/3 cat shapeshifter.
November 16, 2020 6:30 p.m.
TheRealSpecialK says... #6
I just checked in with some official judges for clarification. They confirmed that the first situation was correct. Their words:
"The comprehensive rules have precedence over any other source because they are comprehensive and worded in the most technically accurate way possible. Rulings are a bit like reminder text, they shouldn't be wrong but they're not the bible, the CR is the bible."
So even though dragonstryke58 is correct in that the card-specific ruling says differently, as the rules currently stand, the person who owns the mutated creatures would decided as stated above.
November 16, 2020 6:46 p.m.
TheRealSpecialK says... #7
However the judges I checked with just sent out a tweet to Matt Tabak (a senior Magic editor, the former Magic rules manager, and a member of Magic R&D) to clarify lol.
November 16, 2020 6:49 p.m.
TheRealSpecialK says... Accepted answer #8
I am so sorry for the messiness that is this post. The official answer is:
721.3b. If a player exiles a merged permanent, that player determines the relative timestamp order of the cards at that time. This is an exception to the procedure described in rule 613.7k.
So DPLUCANT'S CONTROLLER GETS TO DECIDE - FINAL ANSWER! My bad guys.
November 16, 2020 6:52 p.m.
Wow what a roller coaster. Thanks TheRealSpecialK for putting in so much effort for this answer.
November 17, 2020 3:45 p.m.
TheRealSpecialK says... #10
doodkyle Congrats for finding an interaction that kind of broke the game lol
TheRealSpecialK says... #1
So this is a really interesting case. I will answer it briefly, then provide a more detailed response. The answer: your opponent gets to decide.
November 16, 2020 6:21 p.m.