Countermand VS Wild Ricochet
Asked by ME4Twaffle 9 years ago
Played a game with my friend earlier today wherein he attempted to counter my Sidewinder Sliver with Countermand . I responded with Wild Ricochet , changed Countermand 's target to Wild Ricochet , and targeted Countermand with the copy generated by Wild Ricochet . Per my understanding, Wild Ricochet would eat the original spell, sending both Wild Ricochet and Countermand to their respective graveyards, wherein my copy would fizzle, because the copy's target is no longer valid.
The question is, per Countermand 's abilities, who discards 4 cards from their library? We both agreed that I still discard 4 from my library, because my spell is still being targeted (just not my Sidewinder Sliver ), but does my copy have any affect in this situation? Or, because its original target is no longer valid, it doesn't really do anything?
We decided he didn't have to discard any cards in our game, but I wanted to get a more official answer.
That, and is there a better way I could have played it in this scenario? Thanks! :)
Epochalyptik says... #2
To answer your last question, you played this as optimally as you could have with only these options.
October 5, 2014 9:49 p.m.
ME4Twaffle says... #3
Awesome, so I used it correctly, but we screwed up the order they resolved. I still won the match, but that makes Wild Ricochet even more intriguing. :)
Thank you!
October 5, 2014 11:11 p.m.
ME4Twaffle says... #4
By the way, are there any "official" rulings on this? My friend won't believe me without Wizards saying so themselves. :\
I had to argue with him enough just to get him to agree that his counter wasn't still going to counter my Sidewinder Sliver . Which was silly, because he's been doing this for years, and I've been at it for about a month.
October 5, 2014 11:15 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
This is the only relevant ruling, which comes from Wild Ricochet 's Gatherer page:
7/1/2013: When Wild Ricochet resolves, it creates a copy of a spell. You control the copy. The controller of the original spell retains control of that spell. The copy is created on the stack, so its not cast. Abilities that trigger when a player casts a spell wont trigger. The copy will then resolve like a normal spell, after players get a chance to cast spells and activate abilities. The copy resolves before the original spell.
There's another appropriate ruling on Redirect , which has a similar effect in this scenario.
8/15/2010: If you cast Redirect targeting a spell that targets a spell on the stack (like Cancel does, for example), you can't change that spell's target to itself. You can, however, change that spell's target to Redirect. If you do, that spell will be countered when it tries to resolve because Redirect will have left the stack by then.
I'm really not sure how your friend even believed that his spell would still counter yours given that (1) its target had been changed, (2) it was countered by another spell, and (3) it would have fizzled if it hadn't been countered by another spell.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
First, a couple technical things.
As the last step in Wild Ricochet 's resolution (i.e. after you have changed the original Countermand 's target and produced your own copy of Countermand ), it is put into your graveyard. Your copy of Countermand will be on the stack above the original Countermand , and it will therefore resolve next. The original Countermand will be countered, and its controller (your opponent) will mill four. Then, your Sidewinder Sliver will resolve.
If for some reason your copy of Countermand does not resolve (say, for example, your opponent countered it with another counterspell), then your opponent's Countermand will try to resolve, but it will fizzle because Wild Ricochet is no longer on the stack.
Also, discarding only happens when you move a card from your hand to the graveyard. Moving a card from the library to the graveyard is not discarding. It has no official name, but it is colloquially called "milling."
October 5, 2014 9:48 p.m.