Copying a master of the pearl trident that's been Trait Doctor'd.
Asked by Exiistential 12 years ago
So I have Master of the Pearl Trident and Merfolk of the Pearl Trident on board.1st main phase I cast Trait Doctoring changing their mountain into an island, and exile it onto my Master. Then I swing (unblocked, thanks to Islandwalk!) and get another Trait Doctoring to cast. This time I choose to change Master of the Pearl Trident so he says "Mountainwalk" until end of turn. And then 2nd main phase I cast Cackling Counterpart targeting Master of the Pearl Trident . Would the token it produces say Mountainwalk or Islandwalk, and would that change on the token at the end of the turn?
It would say mountainwalk, and it would stay mountainwalk.
Trait Doctoring actually changes the text of the permanent, so when you copy it, the copy will pick up the rules text of the permanent, which has been changed.
It won't wear off at end of turn, because Trait Doctoring doesn't add 'until end of turn' to the text of the effected card, and the new creature hasn't been targeted by Trait Doctoring, so nothing is telling the effect to end at end of turn.
May 12, 2013 1:45 a.m.
Really Epoch? Wow. Yet another instance of the rules not actually seeming to match with the obvious logical application of the text on the card.
May 12, 2013 1:46 a.m.
I hate inconsistent rules, or rules that only magically become consistent by amendments after the fact. If you trait doctor the merfolk to read 'mountainwalk' and then say "What is the rules text of this creature" the answer would be "gives +1/+1 and mountainwalk"
The spell states that it actually changes the text of the card. If the technology existed, one assumes that the actual words on the card would be somehow changed to reflect their new reality. So when a copy, which is supposed to copy the rules text of the card, can somehow peer through the effect which has changed the actual text of the card and get at the text of the base card really doesn't seem to mesh with the way Trait Doctoring works.
May 12, 2013 1:48 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #5
I see your frustration, but I'm fine with it in this case. MtG is a largely consistent game with its rulings.
Now, if you want rulings that make absolutely no sense, check out any card every printed in YuGiOh. That crap is dumb. They have to make rulings for exact card-to-card interactions because their rules are so dumb.
May 12, 2013 2:12 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
Copy effects only copy the base object. They don't ever copy additional buffs, counters, text, effects, or anything else unless there is an explicit clause in the copy effect that says so (e.g. Phyrexian Metamorph copies something and also is an artifact in addition to everything else). If you pick up the physical card Master of the Pearl Trident and read it, it says islandwalk, so that's what the copy has.
May 12, 2013 4:19 a.m.
Exiistential says... #7
Thanks for the help! I had a feeling deep down that it wouldn't work how I had hoped, just wanted to run it by you guys and double check. I wish it copied tho, I was thiiiis close to building standard merfolk.
May 12, 2013 4:26 a.m.
It's just, in that case something like Trait Doctoring ought to read "Treat target permanent as though each instance of one color word or basic land type were another until end of turn"
Actually stating that it changes the text of the card is what makes the strong implication that something copying it would see the change.
May 12, 2013 10:25 a.m.
Exiistential says... #9
Completely agree. That's how I took it but I figured there was a rule against it.
May 12, 2013 5:56 p.m.
@Epochalyptik If I've understood cloning correctly that is not completely true since you can clone a cloned creature. So if you clone something, the clone gets all the text on that card and even if the original dies you can use another clone and get another copy by cloning the original clone (lot's of clone in that text). So by that logic Trait Doctoring
should be assumed to copy effects that actually change the text of the card.
So I agree with Devonin this is an inconsistent rule that seems to be very much arbitrary decision not in line with other parts of cloning.
May 13, 2013 3:11 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
Clone effects do inherit any copy effects of either the original object or the new object. For example, if you Clone
a Phyrexian Metamorph
copy of Master of the Pearl Trident
, you get this:
Master of the Pearl Trident
UU
Rare
Artifact Creature - Merfolk Illusion
Other Merfolk creatures you control get +1/+1 and have islandwalk.
2/2
I will concede that the rules for copy effects can seem unintuitive at times, but they are rather clearly defined within the CR, so there isn't much room for debate.
May 13, 2013 3:26 a.m.
@epochalyptik Nobody is debating whether it works that way or not. We're debating whether it -should- work that way or whether the way it works is in conflict with how other things are presented.
May 13, 2013 11:57 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #13
There's no "conflict". Copy effects copy what's physically written on the original, plus the results of other copy effects. Yes, there could have been an opportunity to set up the rules so that text-changing effects would also be incorporated, but they weren't. There could have been an opportunity to set up the rules so that Auras, +1/+1 counters, or several other things would also be incorporated, but they weren't. Having them work this way keeps things simple and avoids a lot of possible confusion over what's going on. Yes, confusion over certain cases still exists, but that's just going to happen no matter what the rules look like.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original objects characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by as . . . enters the battlefield and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
The token will be a copy of a base Merfolk of the Pearl Trident - it will not copy any text-changing effects.
May 12, 2013 1:40 a.m.