Cloning with cipher?

Asked by Bobby654 8 years ago

I need an explanation on this please. Say I had a Mortus Strider and Midnight Recovery was ciphered onto it. I then used Stolen Identity to copy Mortus Strider. Does the copy have the power of Midnight Recovery?

acbooster says... Accepted answer #1

No. When you copy an object, only the text printed on the object is copied over. You'd just have a second Mortus Strider.

May 30, 2015 9:52 a.m.

Gidgetimer says... #2

In addition to the text that is printed on an object any alterations or additions made by earlier copy effects are copied. But for the purposes of this question, no the fact that something is ciphered on to a permanent is not a copyable characteristic.

May 30, 2015 10:24 a.m.

Azaldon says... #3

Correct me if I'm wrong. Cipher does grant a triggered ability that is copyable though, does it not? Just the fact that the card cannot be found by the triggered ability of the copy is what makes it useless.

702.97a Cipher appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities, one that functions while the spell is on the stack and one that functions while the card with cipher is in the exile zone. "Cipher" means "If this spell is represented by a card, you may exile this card encoded on a creature you control" and "As long as this card is encoded on that creature, that creature has 'Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, you may copy this card and you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost.'"

May 30, 2015 10:41 a.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #4

It grants a triggered ability, but that ability isn't a copiable characteristic. Gidgetimer's explanation is the short version of what counts for copiable characteristics, but here's the full rule:

706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.

May 30, 2015 10:53 a.m.

Gidgetimer says... #5

No the ability is given to the creature by the encoded spell. Much like abilities granted by an aura on a creature will not be copied if you copy the creature, abilities granted by an encoded spell are not copied.

May 30, 2015 10:55 a.m.

Azaldon says... #6

So I guess, what's the difference then, between this and the tokens made by Progenitor Mimic? The tokens are given new copyable text by the original card, and the cipher rules explicitly say that the creatures has, "Whenever this creatures deals combat damage to a player you may..." So why would one instance of, "this creature has," and not another instance of "this creature has," be copyable?

May 30, 2015 10:58 a.m.

Azaldon says... #7

Okay so it's a spell granting the ability, not the ability being added to the card. That makes sense. Thanks :)

May 30, 2015 10:59 a.m.

Azaldon says... #8

I see, it says, "as long as this card is encoded, this creature has..." makes sense that it functions more like an aura.

May 30, 2015 11 a.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #9

No, the difference is that the Progenitor Mimic ability is copiable because it's given by a copy effect. That's what the "as modified by other copy effects" comment in the quoted rule means.

May 30, 2015 11:01 a.m.

Azaldon says... #10

@Rhadamanthus Thanks! :)

May 30, 2015 11:12 a.m.

Bobby654 says... #11

Thanks acbooster

June 3, 2015 9:28 a.m.

This discussion has been closed