can you redirect an opponents counter toi target something of his to cause it to fizzle?
Asked by Gimpy187 14 years ago
can you redirect an opponents counter toi target something of his to cause it to fizzle?
This rule actually is more clear and simple that a spell can't target itself
114.4. A spell or ability on the stack is an illegal target for itself.
April 9, 2011 12:14 p.m.
I didn't realise the spell you redirected Counterspell to had to be below it on the stack. I always thought it was a perfectly legal play to Swerve your opponent's Cancel towards the Swerve, forcing the Cancel to be countered by the game rules when it tries to counter something that isn't on the stack any more.
April 9, 2011 12:37 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
Tezz, saying that the redirected target of a spell has to be "below it on the stack" isn't supported by the rules, and neither is your initial explanation of why the Counterspell can't be made to target itself. The only rule that matters in this scenario is the 114.4 you quoted. Siegfried's example with Swerve is an accurate example of how this can be made to work.
April 9, 2011 1:35 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... Accepted answer #5
Siegfried and Rhadamanthus are both correct - a counter can be Redirect ed to a spell "Above" it on the stack.
Just look at the Oracle rulings for Redirect:
8/15/2010 If you cast Redirect targeting a spell that targets a spell on the stack (like Cancel does, for example), you can't change that spell's target to itself. You can, however, change that spell's target to Redirect. If you do, that spell will be countered when it tries to resolve because Redirect will have left the stack by then.Significant part is the last two sentences.
April 9, 2011 1:55 p.m.
whoa guys calm down
Yes, you can fizzle it by targeting anything other then itself, however as the question goes, what I understood Gimpy187 meant to know was if you can Redirect the opponent's Counter to some other spell that opponent had casted either to counter it (notice I use the words "counter", not target and I clearly state that is "for it to work", or in other words resolve properly and counter it's target), or to the Counterspell itself for a state-based auto-counter (which would never happen). I didn't mention the redirect to Redirect to fizzle option because Gimpy187 mentioned redirecting to another one of the opponent's spell, not your redirect.
Yes you can re-target the counterspell on anything else casted afterwards to nullify the counter, the only option I may have left open was the fact that you could re-target the Counterspell to something he had casted after the counterspell but before the Redirect wich would work the same way as the targeting the Redirect itself but as he was clear about targeting something casted by an opponent I thought that wasn't the situation he meant.
But if that was what you wanted to know, my bad, next time I'll just cover every possible situation regardless of what I think is the situation applied.
April 9, 2011 2:54 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #7
I don't think anyone's getting un-calm here. I think Siegfried was actually honestly saying that he didn't realize it, and Rhadamanthus was just correcting you because he felt what you said needed clarification. All I did was look Redirect up on Oracle and quote that, so I took the lazy route. =p
I see what you mean, it does look sort of like that's what he's asking.
So I think the simplest way to sum it all up is: Yes, Redirect can target a counterspell; it can only make that counterspell target something else on the stack, and it can't make a counterspell target itself.
About the only time, I think, that you'd run into a situation where there's both an opponent counterspell AND another opponent spell on the stack is if he cast something, you respond with a spell (say, a counterspell of your own, or a Bolt to zap the target of the aura he's casting), and in response to that he tries to counter your response.
In other words, when the stack looks something like ethis, with the top of the list being the top of the stack (and so the last thing cast):
-3. Opponent counterspell (target: your response)
-2. Your response
-1. Opponent Spell
At this point, you can cast Redirect targeting your opponent's counterspell, and (assuming Redirect goes through) from there make the opponent's counterspell target your opponent's spell.
The stack would then look like this:
-3. Opponent counterspell (target: Opponent spell)
-2. Your response
-1. Opponent Spell
Your opponent's counterspell would counter his spell, your response would either fizzle (if it was a counterspell targetting your opponent's spell) or go through (if it's some other response).
April 9, 2011 3:16 p.m.
Yeah I'm sorry if made it sound like an un-calm explanation, you and Siegfried are correct on your the situations you exemplified, I just was clarifying that my first answer applied only to two specific situations which I considered to be the 2 only applicable ones to this question. I was just clarifying that despite talking about different situations I believe we were all correct here.
My initial explanation on why Counterspell can't target itself wasn't at all related with the citing of the 701.5a rule. I used that rule solely to point out that, to properly counter something that something needs to be on the stack, in case the question was if or not you can redirect the counter to another spell which is above the it on the stack. I took me some time to find the other rule to complete the answer so I posted the first part while I finished searching for proper rule.
Tezz says... #1
I'll refer to Counterspell in this case
Yes you can redirect a Counterspell to target another spell cast by either you or your opponent, however the other spell you choose it to counter must be below the Counterspell on the stack (must have been cast before counterspell) for it to work.
And no, you cannot target Counterspell on itself because for an effect to counter something, that something needs to still be on the stack. By the time the Counterspell takes effect it won't be on the stack anymore.
701.5a To counter a spell or ability means to cancel it, removing it from the stack. It doesnt resolveand none of its effects occur. A countered spell is put into its owners graveyard.
April 9, 2011 12:10 p.m.