1/1 creature that enter with +1/+1 counter and Persist
Asked by Quickspell 3 weeks ago
When Dockworker Drone dies while Isilu, Carrier of Twilight Flip is on the battlefield, when the drone returns to the battlefield due to Persist, does it die due to the -1/-1 counter, or does the persist counter and its own +1/+1 counter cancel out and it just enters as a 1/1 without any counters? Both counters are replacement effects that modify how the creature enters and intuitively I‘d think they cancel out, but the game is sometimes odd in that regard.
I looked up the ruling on MTGWiki, but it wasn’t clear to me. It only refers to persist triggering, but the phrase „despite the state-based action of +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters ‚canceling each other out‘“ is irritating.
„If a permanent with a +1/+1 counter on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to reduce its toughness to 0 or less or have lethal damage marked on it, it won't return to the battlefield despite the state-based action of +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters "canceling each other out". As the permanent last existed on the battlefield, it had a -1/-1 counter on it, so persist won't trigger.“
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Persist#:~:text=battlefield.-,If%20a%20permanent%20with,so%20persist%20won't%20trigger.
As mentioned, it enters with both counters, then immediately loses them, assuming entering with the counter is a replacement effect (ie "enters with a +1/+1 counter on it"). If it has a trigger to put a +1/+1 counter on itself, such as Ainok Guide it will die to the state based action before it ever gets the +1/+1 counter. If it has 0 toughness even with it's own counter, such as Iron Apprentice it will die with both counters on it and fail to persist again.
Quickspell says... #1
I looked up the comprehensive rules (11/2025). If I understand correctly, what would happen is: Both replacement effects happen. I choose the order.
So I would let the creature enter with its own +1/+1 counter. Then it would receive a -1/-1 counter. Those counters cancel out as a state-based action, leaving a 1/1 without counters.
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller […] chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below.[…]
616.1e Any of the applicable replacement and/or prevention effects may be chosen.
616.1f Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.
January 16, 2026 5:14 a.m.