where be the points?
TappedOut forum
Posted on Nov. 11, 2015, 6:52 p.m. by r_type_one
aaand are they coming back?
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #2
Then we could make achievements that need the participation of one other user. Like good suggestions or upvotes or top decks.
November 12, 2015 4:52 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #3
Thing is FAMOUSWATERMELON, Gaia had lots of those too. Achievements that required you to have only all male members or only all female members participate on the first page of a post, or have your post get quoted with "that's what she said" by another user. Doesn't matter how many people are required, they will still try and farm for those achievements.
November 12, 2015 4:57 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #4
I think The Escapist does it, as does Imgur and to a lesser extent Steam does it as well with community badges. I believe the general consensus is that "farmers gonna farm" and anything problematic is removed as spam. There's also cheater shaming like Valve did with the Halos.
Of course, this is counting chickens before you have eggs at all. Adding new features like achievements is getting ahead of ourselves when another system is broken unless it's being supplanted, and that's a lot of additional work.
November 12, 2015 5:21 p.m.
So my points were unharmed as of yesterday, but I just checked and I got nuked as well. Has anyone been able to recover their points? Or is yeaGO still sifting through the Code Mines?
November 12, 2015 6:13 p.m.
I dunno. I never really cared about the point system too much. I mean, I guess it was neat I could start calling myself a Gif Spammer, but that's about it. I find that no matter how my browsing patterns change, I always fluctuate between 94 and 95. The only real spamming I do is gifs. I do a lot of EDH deck help though, so I guess there's that.
November 12, 2015 7:09 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #9
I would like to call all of this Season 2 myself. A whole wide point reset. A brand new day! A brand new start!
November 12, 2015 7:40 p.m.
I wondered what happened. I was trying my hardest to hit Top 100 lol Well, I guess it's back to the drawing board. Starts to create thread to talk about how to spam to get points
November 12, 2015 7:47 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #12
Femme_Fatale please don't. I'm already depressed enough that my rank went down from 17 to 21. if I went all the way to the bottom again, I'd probably... I don't know. drink slightly more than usual or something.
November 12, 2015 8:31 p.m.
canterlotguardian I jumped like thousands of ranks so I'm happy lol But I do feel bad for those who lost those points. I guess we are trying some sort of ObamaCare system or something now. lol
November 12, 2015 9:37 p.m.
Just noticed the point issue... almost 500 points back -.-
How were those points awarded anyway?
November 12, 2015 9:42 p.m.
I think that's exactly the reason we should remove rankings/points. It makes others feel crappy if they can't achieve all their time to get to a high rank. A lot of people have these so called 'jobs' and 'work' so they can't spend a lot of free time on a mtg site. All they can do is to buy stuff and achieve goals. I wonder what that's like....damn, I need a job. :(
Anyway, I'm sorry if what I'm saying sounds like I'm mocking people, but I feel like ranks only complicate things. Sure, it makes people strive for greater things, but it also deprives those who aren't able to become envious or even hateful. I'd be happy to donate my points to others if I could, but would it be worth it in the end? Others would just be wondering why I didn't donate to them and the cycle continues.
November 12, 2015 9:59 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #16
I'm cool with a "season 2" complete reset if recovery is impossible or super difficult. I'd just make it so there was a 1 or 2 week window where everyone could set their title. It would placate those who were gunning for the top 100 for the privilege and it would only really matter to those active enough to use it in that time.
I would not abandon the system completely. I and others have already gone over why and I won't waste everyone's time being redundant.
November 13, 2015 2:26 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #17
SirFowler so you're saying you should alienate those who care about ranks to cater to those who would feel alienated with them? seems to me like you're pissing off a group of people who puts a lot more time and effort into making this site as vibrant of a hub as it is, and you never piss off the people in power. (not like we run the site or anything, but still. lol)
November 13, 2015 7:52 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
If you're cripplingly envious and hateful about imaginary points on a trading card website, maybe you should find a new way to spend your time. Like therapy.
November 13, 2015 8:01 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #19
Haha I've known I've needed therapy for years. I just don't believe it'll be any help to me. If I'm going to change, it'll be me that does it, not some head shrink I'm paying a hundred bucks an hour to tell me things about myself that I already know. But that's entirely beside the point.
It's not a matter about being envious and hateful. I've been on this site for over a year now, going on two years. Since then, I've gone from being at the absolute bottom of the totem pole to being a rank away from being in the top 20 (again). MTG takes up a large portion of my life that isn't already dedicated to college work. Plus, I have loads of fun here, and just being here has improved my MTG playing and deck building skills. And yes, my points do matter to me. Just like my MTG skill matters to me in real life. Same with my skill in any video game I've poured a lot of time and effort into. Does that mean it'll mean anything in the long run? Probably not. But it means something to me right now, and to me, that's what matters.
November 13, 2015 8:13 a.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #20
Well, Epochalyptik, maybe you should spend some of your time with a sensitivity training. That was quite the most aggressive, offensive and downright rude comment in the whole thread, not to mention the projecting you're doing there. Just goes to show that points really don't reflect on useful contributions.
November 13, 2015 11:01 a.m.
yeah not a very useful turn of discussion. suffice it to say people like points, so who gives a shit.
i think what's happening is that points 'wake up' after a period of inactivity. so some people are noticing their recent history coming back.
November 13, 2015 11:10 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #23
The post is very obviously not a personal attack on anybody. It's a general statement the content of which I think is hard to argue against. It was also a response to SirFowler, who used the exact words "envious" and "hateful" in his post. It was not a response to canterlotguardian.
If the entire reason for your being here is to accumulate points, or if you're so obsessed with some artificial "indicator" of your worth as a community member or a person that you are actually hateful toward those who happen to have more of these imaginary points than you, then you're probably not the ideal community member. I've managed and/or participated in plenty of communities where a small demographic of users were so obsessed with generating rep (or post totals or points or likes) that they posted constantly and took a hostile stance toward anyone who implied that their score wasn't good enough or that they weren't actually interested in the community. This is precisely the kind of user I'm describing, and precisely the kind of user I'm not interested in humoring. They're toxic to the community.
If you're actually careful to read what I posted, you'll notice that it's qualified with "cripplingly envious" and "hateful." If you're not one of those things, then the post isn't about you. As far as I can tell, few, if any, people in this community meet those qualifications. If you're merely peeved that someone is beating you, then whatever. It doesn't actually matter in this case unless you want a custom title.
November 13, 2015 11:28 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #24
I laughed. Sometimes callous/jovial dismissal is an appropriate response when faced with the absurd. I can't help but feel his words may have been misdirected towards someone or something else. I mean SirFowler literally said:
"Sure, it makes people strive for greater things, but it also deprives those who aren't able to become envious or even hateful."
Maybe I'm just a butt, but he said what I was thinkin.
November 13, 2015 11:33 a.m. Edited.
FancyTuesday this isn't a thread about analyzing why people like points and I find it redundant to keep having to read the same opinion every time points are ever brought up.
the fact is that site points are a fun feature that lots of people like, for whatever the reason. further dissection is inappropriate. go start your own thread. sounds like a pretty boring one.
November 13, 2015 11:40 a.m.
Of course, replace game of thrones with tappedout :)
but I'm down. I just jumped 120 in rank XD Not that it matters thou...
November 13, 2015 11:41 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #29
I'm not sure, actually. I'm not entirely clear on how points are accrued these days, yeaGO. The acquisition of points seems a bit slower than the olden days. I think it's cool, though.
November 13, 2015 11:46 a.m.
I would say fancy, but I can't see his rank on his user page...
November 13, 2015 11:48 a.m. Edited.
FancyTuesday says... #31
@yeaGO: Hey don't go misunderstanding me now, I am well and fully in support of points. I was quoting SirFowler to put Epochalyptik's joke in context, since it was a line many seem to have missed.
This may not be a thread for analyzing why people like points, but that's all it was for the first page and I was advocating for them, against arguments I'm sure you're well tired of hearing by now.
November 13, 2015 11:48 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #32
I'm frankly unimpressed by how eager some of us are to misinterpret "negative" or critical comments and shortly thereafter dismiss valid concerns about what the feature means for the site.
We get a nonnegligible number of questions about what points are or what rank is and how you get more. We've also in the past attempted to discuss whether points or rank are really a productive statistic as a reflection of how helpful someone is in the community. Further, there have been concerns raised at the user and the administrative level that certain actions (such as answering questions or posting in BE) give fewer or greater points than would be acceptable if points were to be an accurate representation of useful participation.
If we're at a point at which we could "relaunch" the system, would it not behoove us to discuss whether we should explore an option that's more reflective of someone's contributions to the community? A change to how points are calculated or how people can earn them as a function of how helpful their interactions are?
Of course, if nobody is interested in taking an opportunity to make points actually significant for some reason and use them to encourage helpful and constructive participation, by all means tell me to shove it. (You'll get points for doing so.)
November 13, 2015 11:51 a.m.
oh gotcha.
sure, we can do that. are you suggesting we don't make it so based on comments?
November 13, 2015 11:52 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #34
I know the idea of a comment rating or voting system has been shot down in one way or another at various points in our history, but some equivalent (some forums have rep) that would allow users to earn points for helpful comments rather than every comment would be better, I think.
We could also look at the other actions users take, such as providing answers in the Q&A or adding/correcting cards in the database, as potential sources of points.
November 13, 2015 11:56 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #35
And #1 certainly isn't me. My current TO Rank is 214 with 30 points.
@rorofat: If you have Chrome you can disable the "display: none" style of my page's .table element from Inspect Element. I assume Firefox has something similar, but I haven't used it extensively in a long time. I'll turn it off myself for the time being though.
November 13, 2015 11:56 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #36
If we are entertaining this conversation now, my recommendation would be something similar to the current system (because work is hard). Give points for most forms of activity, however trivial, though perhaps tooling around with the "weight" of certain actions. Maybe posts with less than X words are worth less, maybe where the posts happen matters, getting "accepted answer" in a Q&A and database correction might be worth more, that sort of thing.
What I would do is remove the numbered rank system and replace it with tiers tied to set points ranges. This would make it less about trying to objectively quantify a user as being more or less valuable to the community. You wouldn't have users 1 through 100, you'd just have a bunch of users over 5000 points all labeled the same and given the same benefit. This would also benefit new users, as they'd have a set threshold to shoot for and not an ever raising incline to break into that group.
November 13, 2015 12:08 p.m. Edited.
JakeHarlow says... #37
I like the notion that adding cards, answering rules questions, posting helpful comments on folks' deck pages, etc. are worth more points than just chatting in the forums.
November 13, 2015 12:10 p.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #38
Hehe, I actually don't get points for comments. They are fixed at 880 ever since the wipe.
I don't think I want that to change, either, giving points for a high comment count is the number one reason for spam. I've already blocked a few users that split their posts into triple-posts on my decks.
I'd suggest putting the main focus on a point reward for site contributions like card fixes and correct answers in Q+A. Give double points if answers contain rule references (that gives me an idea btw). But some comments and threads are useful, so you could add a "Thank you" system for those. To prevent spam, you could then display the percentage of comments that were thanked for in relation to the total.
November 13, 2015 12:16 p.m.
IMO, points are fun, but I still don't know the mechanisms to get them (there has to be more than 1 way right?)
On the other hand, maybe giving a Like or Dislike kind of button to the comments, supporting what
Epochalyptik is saying, would be the most universal and familiar solution in that field (many forums do have that as well).
The idea of earning points through answers in the Q&A may not be the best, as the amount of Questions submitted don't seem to be too high (correct me if I'm wrong, please), so earning these point would be waaay too difficult/slow.
+1 to the database-editing solution too.
Anyway, with or without points, I'll keep on doing my Bussiness here :D
PS: What happens when you get to the top 100 ranks?
November 13, 2015 12:17 p.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #40
@ Busse Not sure about today, but before my absence reaching top100 allowed you to pick a custom title so you're not a Deckling anymore.
November 13, 2015 12:24 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #41
The Q&A is reasonably active, but the volume of participation isn't what's important here. We're talking about a range of actions that could theoretically carry point values; we're not talking about limiting points to just the Q&A or just the forums or what have you.
And although a comment voting feature might be productive, we still have to be careful because it's yet another opportunity for point farming. Dislikes also tend to be used maliciously; I don't think they necessarily add some functionality that would justify their inclusion at the risk of creating a popularity contest.
November 13, 2015 12:25 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #42
Dislikes/Rep- systems have their place, but I don't think that place is here. I've seen it used to great effect in corners of the internet like SomethingAwful where a caustic attitude is part of the culture, where you can wear your shitposting and awful reputation like a badge of honor and even be lauded for it, but I don't see that flying here. I imagine it'd come of as much more bitter, personal, and negative here.
November 13, 2015 12:32 p.m.
I like the point system. It made a goal for me. I wanted to reach top 100 to change my title. So for a month I went into the commander lists and tried to help any deck I could. It was a form of spam, but I wanted my spam to help.
I'm in the top 100 now, despite my points being reset and I honestly feel a little protective of my rank. This makes me want to be a consistent, beneficial member of the community.
November 13, 2015 12:45 p.m.
What if people could like..... +1 users for giving useful comments in the exact same way they +1 decks.
It's not a negative system, only a positive system (no -1'ing). It doesn't encourage shitposting because obviously that's not going to earn you +1s from anyone. It does encourage large volumes of helpful information in order to garner attention and respect (which I'm assuming would lead to people +1'ing you).
What do you think? Replace rank based on comments with a score based on upvotes?
November 13, 2015 12:46 p.m.
Sounds like collusion could occur, but I suppose that is already a possibility with upvotes. Trading upvotes for upvotes.
November 13, 2015 12:49 p.m.
Collusion could occur for small numbers but once we start getting users with 100s of upvotes any small amounts of collusion would just be meaningless.
Besides, it's an identical system to the one we already use - just for users instead of decks.
November 13, 2015 12:50 p.m. Edited.
Femme_Fatale says... #47
I'm going to say that everytime a new set comes out I get about 5-10k in points. The same pretty much goes for the tokens. I have around 340 tokens. And that number keeps going up.
November 13, 2015 12:52 p.m.
I actually realised recently, perhaps two weeks ago or something that I just wasn't getting any points at all. I'd been pretty active around the modern community and on articles and my points total just wasn't increasing.
November 13, 2015 12:56 p.m.
I kinda like that idea. Nintendo's Miiverse has a similar system where you can like the comments which make people happy and encourage them to post better and more useful information. It doesn't have a dislike button because it only is for encouragement rather than dividing opinions which can hurt people in the process.
It might not be the best for every site, but why not try a trial run for some people to see how they like the system? Now the only question is (besides the one I just asked of course) where does it take us as a community and how can we achieve better understanding? Answer that and get back to me, unless you don't feel like it of course.
....
I'm so lonely sometimes. :(
Femme_Fatale says... #1
I always thought that having trophies and achievements would be cool too. And like, posting statistics like other forums do. Where it says you made X posts and have a certain title to reflect that.
The achievements thing I only ever saw done on Gaiaonline.com and it was fun. HOWEVER, the biggest problem with achievements is you end up people creating decks and threads to do nothing but get those achievements. In fact, Gaia ended up having to make an entire forum just for that. So the achievements didn't really amount to much as anyone could just bypass the special requirements in getting them.
November 12, 2015 4:49 p.m.