How does Mystic Genesis works with Entreat the Angels?
General forum
Posted on Jan. 18, 2013, 11:51 a.m. by jokercrow
If my opponent cast Entreat the Angels for it's miracle cost to put 2 angels on the battlefield and I counter it with Mystic Genesis , how strong will be my ooze ?
2/2 for the cmc of the miracle ?
3/3 for the cmc of the card ?
or
4/4 for the cmc that was paid ? (<-- my guess)
Ohthenoises says... #3
X is treated as zero everywhere EXCEPT the stack. Whatever he paid for the spell is the CMC of the spell. when you counter it.
January 18, 2013 noon
Ohthenoises says... #4
107.3a ...While a spell is on the stack, any X in its mana cost equals the announced value. While an activated ability is on the stack, any X in its activation cost equals the announced value.
January 18, 2013 12:04 p.m.
Your guess is correct.
In your example, your opponent payed 4CMC for the spell (X=2 plus WW), thus the CMC of the spell was 4. Your Mystic Genesis token creature will be a 4/4.
January 18, 2013 12:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
Ohthenoises's answer is the most correct. Note that converted mana cost is NOT the same as total casting cost. Additional costs and cost reductions don't change a card's converted mana cost. CMC is only what is printed in the upper right corner of a card, including X values (which, according to 107.3a, are treated as the chosen integer while the spell is on the stack).
January 18, 2013 1:02 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #7
My interpretation is that it would in fact be 7. Miracled, your opponent chose X=2. But the cmc is not the miracled cost it is its actual cost. So it would be 2*X + 3 = 7. But i could be wrong.
January 18, 2013 1:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
No, you are correct. The CMC of Entreat the Angels is always XXWWW because the CMC is always derived from the printed mana cost of the card, regardless of how it was cast.
January 18, 2013 1:19 p.m.
Alternate costs used to cast a spell is what the spells CMC is while it is on the stack.
Example: A spell that costs 2R but has a kicker of R, will have a 4CMC while on the stack if it's kicker was paid, but only a 3CMC anywhere else.
January 18, 2013 1:21 p.m.
I suppose that, from what I understood, there is a difference between a CARD's cmc (upper left of the card) and a SPELL's cmc (what has been paid to put the card on the stack). So in this example, we are talking about the SPELL's cmc, witch is 4.
January 18, 2013 1:36 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #12
@Rayenous: No, a spell's converted mana cost is the sum of all the symbols printed in the upper-right corner of a card, including the current value of X if it's on the stack. Paying additional costs like Kicker doesn't change those symbols, and doesn't change the CMC. The hypothetical card in your example always has CMC = 3, even if an effect let you cast it for no mana.
January 18, 2013 2:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
There still seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread.
A card's CMC is ALWAYS derived from the values printed in its upper right corner. X is treated as 0 unless that card is on the stack and a non-zero integer has been chosen for X.
The amount of mana paid has no effect on the CMC of a spell.
Additional costs paid have no effect on the CMC of a spell.
The CMC of a spell is only what is printed in its upper right corner, regardless of any additional costs, cost reductions, or alternate costs.
January 18, 2013 2:14 p.m.
I had to check this out further, as at my FNM, they have always used the amount paid. (I will have to explain to the Judge why this isn't the case.)
I found information, including all the rules required to explain this, as well as someones response from MTG-Rules, at:
January 18, 2013 2:18 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #16
If your judge an actual judge, or just the house-appointed rules guru? I'm surprised a judge would miss something as basic as the definition of CMC.
January 18, 2013 2:26 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
*Is.
Also, that thread pretty much covers exactly what the correct answers here have been saying. I suppose it does have the benefit of more liberal quoting from the CR, though.
January 18, 2013 2:28 p.m.
Thanks Epochalyptik for those precisions. Also, I have found the rule that proves your point about kicker cost:
117.8c Additional costs dont change a spells mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spells mana cost still see the original value.
January 18, 2013 2:30 p.m.
Khizaqstan says... #19
The very first response by Rayenous is the on that I believe is correct. I can't figure out any reason that the converted mana cost of the spell should be any different than what the player paid to cast it, just converted.
January 18, 2013 4:13 p.m.
GoblinsInc says... #20
Because the Miracle cost is an alternate cost for the card/spell. The CMC is based off of what is printed at the top right corner of the card, not what is paid for the spell.
In the example, though the player only pays 2WW, he has set the value of X to equal 2. Since in the top right corner of the card it has XXWWW, each X is turned into a value of 2, making it 2+2WWW. Therefor the CMC is 4 + 3 (WWW), or 7.
January 18, 2013 4:16 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #21
I think the official rules are a pretty good reason.
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana cost, regardless of color.
Example: A mana cost of 3UU translates to a converted mana cost of 5.
202.3b When calculating the converted mana cost of an object with an X in its mana cost, X is treated as 0 while the object is not on the stack, and X is treated as the number chosen for it while the object is on the stack.
I think a lot of the posters here are confusing converted mana cost with total casting cost. Converted mana cost is used to determine total casting cost (except in cases with alternate costs), but the two are NOT synonymous. CMC is always the value in the top right of any card. TCC is what you pay to cast the card.
January 18, 2013 4:21 p.m.
Dat_Control says... #22
Can someone tell me if GoblinsInc is correct or not?
February 25, 2013 1:44 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #23
GoblinsInc and I are both correct, as we have confirmed several times.
February 25, 2013 2:28 a.m.
Dat_Control says... #24
I couldn't find an explanation like his in the previous posts.
February 25, 2013 3:42 a.m.
Not an answer, but I feel like it would be a lot easier to understand if the CMC was called the UNconverted Mana Cost
February 25, 2013 8:37 a.m.
ALSO, following these rules of CMC and X, would I be able to use something like Abrupt Decay on something like Primordial Hydra , since once he was cast he is no longer on the stack and therefore his X goes back to 0?
February 25, 2013 8:41 a.m.
Yup. The Hydra's not on the stack anymore, so when figuring out its CMC, X is 0, so its CMC is 2, so Abrupt Decay can destroy it.
artahn says... #2
I'm no expert, but I believe it would be 3/3. CMC is always the minimum of what it costs to normally cast the card (read: if X=0), how much mana s/he spent to cast it is irrelevant.
January 18, 2013 11:58 a.m.