Source of Casting a Copy of a card.
Asked by Minathia 1 year ago
Any card that says, "create a copy of [target, exiled, facedown, noted, etc.] CARD. You may cast this card. [sometimes with new timing/costs]
Magar of the Magic Strings+Delayed Blast Fireball
If the spell copied cares about the zone a spell is cast from, , do the copies have one to reference? Fundamentally, when you create a copy of a card, in what zone does that copy exist in BEFORE you cast it, but after it is created. We know it doesn't just default to the stack, because the first step in casting a spell is to move it from the zone it is in onto the stack.
I've been up and down 707 and I really can't answer this.
707.13 is explicitly for Garth One-Eye. It says the player creates a copy of the card outside the game and casts it from there.
707.14 focuses on Magar of the Magic Strings. The player uses characteristics of that card as it last existed in the graveyard to determine the copiable values of the copy, but nothing on where that copy of a card exists before casting it.
Thoughts?
Gidgetimer 100% correct on what you are saying, I'm pretty sure 707.12 doesn't apply here.
What zone would the copy be cast from in Magar's case?
I started with 707.14 on how to determine the answer. Functionally it instructs the player use the last know information of the noted card as it was in the GY to determine characteristics of the copy, the of those characteristics, determine the copyable values of the copy. 109.3 lists out all characteristics of a object, copyable or not. An object's current zone is not listed.
The ONLY other card that does something like this is Garth One-Eye. He also has a specific rule to determine how he answers this question. They explicitly answer this question in 707.13. Do a similar process to determine characteristics, copy copyable values, and then "...and creates the copy outside the game."
This is the closest I've have to an answer, but it is explicitly for just Garth.
I think the issue is, we aren't copying a game object in either of Garth's or Magar's cases. When it says "create a copy of that card," we are not talking about the physical game object, but instead the concept of a card. EG: Search your library for a card named The Underworld Cookbook
If we are indeed copying the characteristics of an noted/named Magic the Gathering card not a game object, a lot of 707 goes out the window, including 707.12. This "card" is not a game object.
We can still use a game object's last known information in Magar's case to determine characteristics. However, current/previous zone is not a characteristic of a card by the definition of a card (108.2) and characteristics(109.3).
I hope that makes my issue more clear?
CR References
December 14, 2022 8:17 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #3
What you are asking is more clear now. If I had to do a judge call on it I'd say that it is created outside the game and they didn't think to edit 707.13 for an unset. You might have to hit up Jess Dunks on twitter as the rules for Magar of the Magic Strings don't seem to be clear. I think we can all agree that it isn't cast from the hand, exile, command zone, or library. But whether it is graveyard, battlefield or outside the game seems to be up to interpretation.
December 14, 2022 9:03 p.m.
No worries Gidgetimer, I wasn't very clear in my first post.
I was also on the get JDunks plan, but I wanted to see if I could dodge the [O] here. The man's also had a busy couple of weeks. Figured I'd toss it here and in some judge chats before bugging him with a dumb corner-case that only affects my bad EDH life decisions.
100% agreed with the ruling, and I'd do the same. It's for sure it's not exile and the phrasing of Delayed Blast Fireball allows for a NULL for previous zone and still resolve properly. I also agree this is likely either an oversight.
I'm not sure where the threshold is, but eventually enough cards will be creating copies of "cards by name" that a standard, rather than a list of exceptions, should be implemented.
Thanks for sanity checking with me!
December 15, 2022 12:45 a.m.
I originally thought that magar spells cast from the battlefield, because thats where the card is at time if copying the spell, albeit facedown. But since it says "a copy of the noted spell: rather than "a copy of the spell on the other side of this card" I agree that it's more of a Garth-like effect where you cast the spell that is called that. The "as it was last known in the graveyard" clause is a weird one though, but I assume that it's phrased that was instead of the Garth-rule way (consult the oracle) because they know you have the card with you and so you don't have to look it up.
February 25, 2023 12:20 p.m.
TheDaftWizard says... Accepted answer #6
Hi! I'm a rules advisor and was brought to this thread by a friend asking me about the interaction between Magar of the Magic Strings and Weathered Runestone. for the sake of brevity, "instant" here will mean either instant or sorcery. Here's what I wrote:
The defining issue of this debate is the fundamental difference in the framework of the game between a Card and an Object. (109.1) "An object is an ability on the stack, a card, a copy of a card, a token, a spell, a permanent, or an emblem." When a card moves zones, it (usually) becomes an entirely new object and loses all knowledge of its previous existence, and (most) effects attempting to refer to that object won't find it if it's no longer in that zone. Therefore, if an effect would both need to refer to information about an object and move that object into a new zone, the effect would necessitate the creation of a "Last Known Information" packet about the object. To be noted is that LKI and an object's Characteristics (as defined in 109.3) are two distinct concepts. LKI contains but is not limited to Characteristics, and Characteristics contains but is not limited to Copiable Values.
Magar's ability has you "note the name" of a target instant card in your graveyard, then has you move that card onto the battlefield face down as a creature. Because you targeted an object, moved that object, AND created an effect that would refer to that object, a LKI packet is created containing all possible information about the instant card in your graveyard. Because Runestone only cares if the object attempting to enter the battlefield is a "nonland permanent card, in a graveyard", it will have no issues with this because at all times in which the referred object is in the graveyard, it is an instant card.
The difference between Magar and Garth is that because Garth instructs you to "create a copy of a card defined by name rather than by indicating an object to be copied" (707.13), his CR entry needs to clarify what zone it is in which this new object is being created; in his case, outside the game. However, Magar instructs you to "use the [LKI packet of the object] in the graveyard to determine the copiable values of the copy" (707.14), and because 707.12 says that "An effect that instructs a player to cast a copy of an object (and not just copy a spell) follows the rules for casting spells, except that the copy is created in the same zone the object is in and then cast while another spell or ability is resolving," Magar's ability will need to create a copy of the referred object which, according to the LKI packet, is a card, with the Instant type, in a graveyard.
Therefore, when the ability given to the 3/3 creature triggers, and attempts to "create a copy of the card with the noted name", it would create a new object into your graveyard that contains the copiable values of the LKI packet, then would allow you to "cast the copy"; unfortunately, because of Weathered Runestone, players can't cast spells from graveyards, so the new object will be unable to be moved onto the stack, and will remain in your graveyard until state-based actions are checked and (707.10a) will cause that object to cease to exist.
TL;DR the copy of the instant/sorcery targeted by Magar will be a new object, initially created into your graveyard, then cast from your graveyard and moved to the stack.
Bonus Points: Spellweaver Volute also has you create a new object into your Graveyard; God-Eternal Kefnet instructs you to create a new object into your Library; and weirdest of all, Reversal of Fortune instructs you to create a new object into an opponent's Hand!
April 16, 2023 8:30 p.m.
This is the best argument for "it casts from the GY using LKI".
Floored I didn't think of Spellweaver Volute for casting copy of cards. Excellent example of the process and a staple in my Riku deck.
Thanks dredging this one up.
April 17, 2023 6:55 p.m. Edited.
So it does not cast from graveyard. Let's review some MTG rules
707.14 One card (Magar of the Magic Strings) instructs a player to note the name of a particular card in a graveyard and create a copy of the card with the noted name. To do so, use the characteristics of that card as it last existed in the graveyard to determine the copiable values of the copy
109.3 An object’s characteristics are name, mana cost, color, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, abilities, power, toughness, loyalty, defense, hand modifier, and life modifier. Objects can have some or all of these characteristics. Any other information about an object isn’t a characteristic. For example, characteristics don’t include whether a permanent is tapped, a spell’s target, an object’s owner or controller, what an Aura enchants, and so on.
200.1. The parts of a card are name, mana cost, illustration, color indicator, type line, expansion symbol, text box, power and toughness, loyalty, hand modifier, life modifier, illustration credit, legal text, and collector number. Some cards may have more than one of any or all of these parts.
608.2h If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.
707.13 One card (Garth One-Eye) instructs a player to create a copy of a card defined by name rather than by indicating an object to be copied. To do so, the player uses the Oracle card reference to determine the characteristics of the copy and creates the copy outside of the game.
123.6c The text that a name sticker is modifying may change due to other effects and/or a permanent’s face-down status (see rule 708, “Face-Down Spells and Permanents”). To determine the name of an object with one or more name stickers, start with the object’s copiable values, then apply each name sticker’s effect and each other text-changing effect in timestamp order. The position of each name sticker will continue to be after the number of words that were before it in the object’s name when it was placed. If there are fewer words in the object’s current name, the word on that sticker is added at the end of its name instead. The position and timestamp order of each name sticker on an object is remembered as the object that sticker is on moves from one public zone to another, and it continues to apply to the new object it becomes in that zone (see rule 123.5). This is an exception to rule 400.7 (TLDR a cards name can change with a name sticker)
Magar's ability has you note down the name of a card in your graveyard. When triggered it will then create a copy of a card with that name. It also does not say where the card is created and as zone is not part of Last Known Information, Card Characteristics, or Object Characteristics we can then presume this ability follows closely with Garth's. So the copy would be created outside of the game and cast from there. Spellweaver Volute's ability also targets an object that it is attached to and not card name.
Gidgetimer says... #1
The copy is created in the same zone the card is in.
707.12. An effect that instructs a player to cast a copy of an object (and not just copy a spell) follows the rules for casting spells, except that the copy is created in the same zone the object is in and then cast while another spell or ability is resolving. Casting a copy of an object follows steps 601.2a–h of rule 601, “Casting Spells,” and then the copy becomes cast. Once cast, the copy is a spell on the stack, and just like any other spell it can resolve or be countered.
December 12, 2022 10:24 p.m.