Your opinion on passable proxies?
General forum
Posted on Jan. 28, 2015, 1:19 p.m. by Rman92011
I'd like to start this thread off by saying that these proxies should clearly Not be traded, but what I am asking you is this: What is your opinion on these proxies existing, and any further notes you have.
The next part of this will be entirely my personal opinion.
I think these proxies are a good thing, barring that they are never traded off as the real thing. I know a lot of people that can't afford top-tier decks, for whatever reason, be it that they are minors, or anything. These proxies allow people who can't afford top-tier decks to play with these decks, without affecting the flow of the game as normal black & white proxies would. I would be more than happy to play against someone using these proxies, whether in a tournament or not, as long as they were recognized as proxies. I have spent a lot of money on decks, and don't believe that the barrier for entry should be nearly as high as it is. These proxies also allow for collectors to continue collecting as they would, and allows players to bypass the extremely high prices of the reserve list. As long as standard cards were not being faked, and it is only modern/legacy/vintage/edh cards that are proxied, it would not interfere with the profit margins of WOTC because they are no longer printing these cards.
So I ask you, the community, what is your opinion on these fakes from a players, collectors, or traders standpoint.
Also, I have sources for some of this information, and some pictures of the fakes compared to real cards. I do not own any of these proxies, but I have seem them posted elsewhere. I won't postthese for now as I realize it may not be allowed, but I will post these if Epochalyptik clears them first.
Seraphicate says... #2
Rman92011, in my eyes, that is still not right; he's making fake Magic cards, and actually selling them. He makes a profit. You might think the problem ends there, but what if a certain buyer of those proxies decides to trade them away, passing them off as real cards? Somebody would have incurred a huge loss, and these proxies would have entered the market, getting passed around left and right.
January 29, 2015 4:12 p.m.
ClutchWorks says... #3
I don't understand how these aren't in litigation yet. You did a good job explaining the MTG revenue model Epochalyptik, but HOW DO THE CHINESE ALWAYS GET AWAY WITH THIS?!
I mean look at those things... they're replicated and sold for profit.. This is why I don't agree with proxies.. writing the name of a card on a napkin and tucking it into a sleeve is way more agreeable at the kitchen table then putting in this kinda time/effort to purchase material, print copies, and vend internationally. There are several non-WotC sites up and running to provide proxy art, and I doubt those sites are merely providing a service as philanthropy. Wasn't cockatrice shut down for a while for hosting mtg electronically? Which is also food for thought on the pre-foil to foil cardstock proxy idea referenced on page two. Is the intention to have a cooler proxy idea than the dudes you play proxies with, or are you trying to offer something currently not in production for profit? If someone is going to pay $50 for 55 knock-offs, why wouldn't you just by 1-10+ legitimate/competitive legal cards instead? Whether WotC sells to distro and/or affiliate parties only doesn't really negate the fact that mass produced imitations affect their bottom line and would keep a group of casual players from spending a penny for the betterment of MTG.
lol.. for the record, I'm asian, so my chinese reference wasn't intended to be racist.. But they do produce an awful lot of knock off tho.
January 29, 2015 4:19 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
Who's going to stop them? You can't shut down every foreign hack running a counterfeit op on intellectual property. If you even manage to hit them with litigation in a foreign court, you still have other ops popping up to take their place.
WOTC probably gets a lot more out of shutting down the distributors when possible. Do as much as they can to stop the flow of extant counterfeits.
January 29, 2015 4:41 p.m.
Honestly, I don't think these proxies would be a problem at all if wizards didn't let certain cards way to high in price. This of course, Opens up for a debate on the reserved list, which is an entirely different argument. but these proxies are only and of high-dollar cards that not everyone can afford. Many of the cards on the lists that I posted were beyond the prices of the entire lot (~$50) for a single copy. There are a lot of people that simply can't even afford to spend $100 on magic at all, much less on a single card for their 60-100 card deck. This proxy situation could be remedied by wizards refusing to allow cards to go above a certain point because there'd be very less profit margin there for the proxy maker. I am a strong believer in relatively easy access to all players, in the form of proxies, or in the form of purchased product.
January 29, 2015 4:44 p.m.
ClutchWorks says... #6
Age restrictions might be the only viable excuse for not buying valid product - especially if you are capable of changing your financial situation and are passionate about your interests. I want to buy a Karn and Jace, for example. I'm not prepared to unload that amount of money for two cards since I know I would have more fun drafting a box of FRF, so what do I do? I structure my decks with alternatives until I'm ready to invest. I don't cry at night about it either - it's not that serious. I understand wanting to playtest cards and get a sense of playable synergies before investing, but there are other viable avenues for that which wouldn't require a kid to spend $50 for a bundle of imitation. I guess I just realized I'm only ok with the thought of writing a card name down on paper lol.
I wouldn't buy Converse Not-stars from Old Navy just to get me by until I buy the actual Allstars. I would either save for the Allstars or stick to the Not-stars, and I believe the latter mentality may be a little more consistent, unfortunately.
January 29, 2015 5:03 p.m.
@ClutchWorks I dissagree with you there I'm 34 years old and I have 3 kids a motgage and a car payment after those and other living expenses evan though I make over $20 an hour I still can't afford to go out and buy all the cards I want so saying "age restrictions is the only viable excuse" just ain't the case and saying "you can change your financial situation" is bull shit I make over twice what most people make where I live so no I cant "change my financial situation" Ive been playing for over 16 years so I'd say I'm more passionate about magic than most people and yet I can't afford to buy a Mana Crypt for each of my EDH decks so I proxy the one I do have
January 29, 2015 6:38 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
Whenever someone mentions card price or lack of availability, I give this rant.
The thing is, you aren't entitled to anything. This is a collectible card game. It's based on the idea that not everyone will have access to every card. And nobody is entitled to own any card. You either get a card or you don't, but you don't get to complain about not having one. You're playing a game, and you need to accept that. Magic cards aren't commodities. It's your choice to play this game, and it's your choice to acquire or to not acquire certain cards.
But you also have to realize that WOTC doesn't have to do anything about card prices. They don't profit directly from the secondary market unless it drives sales of sealed product to stores. Once a set is out of print, WOTC stops seeing money from it unless they produce a reprint of a desired card to allow them to capitalize on demand for the new sealed product. They don't sell singles. The secondary market does that.
WOTC has a stake in maintaining the popularity of the game to perpetuate the sale of sealed product, whether directly (make Limited and set design good so people buy sealed product) or indirectly (make the game popular so current players remain players and so non-players become players. Part of this is maintaining the health of the formats (which is a means of indirectly maintaining the game's popularity). There will always be demand for certain cards. The demand may move back and forth between different cards, but it will always exist, and that means prices will always be high for some cards. It's up to each individual player to determine whether to get that card or not.
January 29, 2015 7:05 p.m.
I think the fact that WOTC doesn't profit from the secondary market is one of the biggest reasons to allow these proxies. The health and popularity of the format would certainly go up because nearly anyone would be permitted to play in the format, regardless of how wealthy they are. The only way these proxies could hurt WOTC is if they start printing proxies of sets that are in print. The proxy companies and their credibility is not the point I'm trying to make though. They certainly have poor credibility and could very possibly begin to hurt WOTC, but ideally, this would not be the case. Personally, I believe allowing these proxies would make MTG a much more profitable experience, allowing more people to buy limited product, because they're not spending all of their MTG budget on formats like legacy and modern, which WOTC hardly benefit from anyways.
January 29, 2015 7:41 p.m.
I agree with that Rman92011 vintage is all but dead due to the "reserved" list and $14,000-$26,000 to get the cards you need for any competetive deck and this makes me very sad :-( in fact that is the reason commander has become so popular is the fact that it's basicly vintage (with a twist) without power 9 so people like me that never have or ever will have the P9 can still play
January 29, 2015 8:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
You mean WOTC should allow people to profit from their intellectual property, collapse the secondary market, and destroy the game's integrity? Are you serious? Like, at all?
January 29, 2015 8:05 p.m.
I feel the reserved list has killed vintage I do not think this is a collector card first and a card game second I feel that is the backwards thinking that killed vintage in the first place. Now don't get me wrong if you want to go to anything higher than local store games ie grand pre or pro then yes you should invest in the real thing, but for new kids (and people like me who have a life but still want to play to the fullest extent of their ability NOT pocketbook) we should be able to play 10 proxy events
January 29, 2015 8:13 p.m.
But then again I think they needed to print "vintage masters" as well as doing it for mtgo
January 29, 2015 8:22 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
Refer to post 3:20.
So you think that WOTC should allow other people to counterfeit and profit from their intellectual property without consequence so that people can play in sanctioned events?
And you think they should completely ignore the one company-to-player promise they said numerous times they will not violate and that, if violated, would lead to the disenfranchisement of thousands of people holding hundreds of thousands of dollars?
This thread is on a roll.
January 29, 2015 8:37 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
Don't get me wrong, I understand people who play casual with proxies because they can't afford the cards they really wish they had.
But the second you let intellectual property and copyright laws go out the window and allow proxies into competitive events, you destroy the secondary market. Stores pull out because it's not profitable to support a game with that operational model. You disenfranchise the millions of players who've invested hundreds of millions of dollars in the game (an issue that almost destroyed the game even in its infancy and that resulted in the Reserved List), who are then (understandably) livid. You give up any ability to market product based on Constructed demand. You effectively condemn your own game to an untimely demise. All so that you can let everyone play with whatever they want instead of allowing them to deal with the reality of limited supply.
January 29, 2015 8:43 p.m.
I never said anyone should turn a profit off of proxies just that people should be able to use proxies in 10 proxy events
January 29, 2015 8:50 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
Even if nobody else profits from them, you still achieve all of the rest of those outcomes.
January 29, 2015 8:55 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
I don't know if you realize, but most Magic games happen at the local level. If you allow stores to run sanctioned events while ignoring one of the most basic rules of the game, you create an environment where people are welcome to divest themselves from the secondary market and allow it to decline all because some people think it's preferable for everyone to have everything.
And if your argument is actually that stores should be able to run the occasional proxies-allowed event in addition to other Regular REL events that follow the game's rules, then you're not stating anything new. Many stores already do this on a very, very limited basis, and those events cannot be sanctioned. Stores host and support them at their own discretion.
January 29, 2015 9:01 p.m.
So if the cards on the reserved list can be remade on mtgo why not just reprint them? Ain't mtgo going to "destroy" the game according to your logic?
January 29, 2015 9:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
Because nobody on MTGO is holding a 20-year-old card worth tens of thousands of dollars? Because "cards" on MTGO are actually just digital licenses to use representations of cards? Because you can't cash digital P9 for paper P9?
Rman92011 says... #1
Ok, I was away from my computer and here are some of the links to the proxies I was talking about:
Set of ABUR Duals
Misc. Proxies
Light Test
As you can see, these are very high quality proxies and they can pass multiple rudimentary tests. The person selling these recognizes them as proxies and doesn't try to sell them off as real cards. I won't further my personal opinion, as I see that many of you disagree, but if there is anymore information you'd like, just ask.
January 29, 2015 3:46 p.m.