Trapping a Poor Commander in Exile :(
Asked by Remula 12 years ago
Greetings, friends.
Today I have a somewhat specific EDH question, a format whose rules I certainly need help with.
Let's say my opponent controls Obzedat, Ghost Council. They choose to exile Ghost Dad as part of his ability, and so naturally don't return him to the Commander Zone. However, at the start of the the next upkeep, I Stifle his delayed trigger to return. My assumption is that there is no longer any option to return him to the Commander Zone, and I just trapped America's favorite pudding spokesman in exile to a much more permanent degree.
However, as said, I'm not totally familiar with how EDH works, and perhaps someone could clarify a loophole I missed?
Whenever a commander would be put into exile from anywhere, its controller may choose to place him in the Command Zone. This also applies to Obzedat's ability.
Since the second part of his ability does not specify "return from exile", Obzedat can come back even from the Command Zone in the same way he would come back from exile.
I'm not sure if stifling the delayed trigger would trap him in exile if its owner chose to not put him in the Command Zone.
March 4, 2013 11:39 a.m.
OrgasmAndTea says... #3
I doubt you'd be able to return him from exile if you send him to the command zone instead of exiling him - the delayed trigger states 'if you do', meaning 'if you exiled him', and if you replaced exile with command zone, he wasn't technically exiled.
March 4, 2013 11:51 a.m.
I'm thinking that Obzedat, Ghost Council's second ability is an all or nothing thing. The return the play aspect of it is just a second part of an ability that has already resolved and therefore cannot be Stifled.
Either you stifle it and he does not leave or you cannot stifle at all.
March 4, 2013 11:58 a.m.
I'm with apt142 on this one, just as you cannot counter half a spell, I don't think it's possible to counter half an activated ability. So Stifle should only work if you counter the whole effect.
March 4, 2013 12:07 p.m.
JaredMatthewsArtwork says... #6
I would add my two cents, but really all I need to say is that Zygoma is right and the rest are wrong(I have absolutely no idea what O.andTea was talking about. Seriously, try to find a logical order in it). Think about it this way. You are allowed to let your commander fall into the graveyard if they have died, and that is a permanent decision. It replaces the clause that your general may be put back in the command zone with, and now you must stick with that choice. The only way out of it is if it gets exiled from the grave, which then you get the choice between the commander clause and true exile. With Obzedat, they are making a permanent decision to exile the creature. They only get the choice for the clause at the point where he blinks out. If you stifle their ability to bring him back, there is no way to get him back but Pull from Eternity, which only gets him back in the grave.
March 4, 2013 12:12 p.m.
I would think that Obzedat, Ghost Council sets up a delayed trigger similar to Rebound (see Cast Through Time), therefore it could be countered with Stifle.
March 4, 2013 12:13 p.m.
JaredMatthewsArtwork says... #8
Actually, never mind. Two more comments popped up before mine, and I did not think of the part they mentioned. Yes, the ability is only one ability. If you stifle it, it will just stay on the field. Sorry to confuse people.
March 4, 2013 12:15 p.m.
JaredMatthewsArtwork says... #9
meecht, rebound doesnt work that way. You can't stifle it, you can only counter the rebounded spell because,well, its a spell.
March 4, 2013 12:18 p.m.
I said "similar to rebound" in that the spell is exiled then recast during your upkeep. Granted, Obzedat isn't recast from exile, but it's returning from exile due to a delayed trigger set up by the first part of his second ability.
Just about everything uses the stack except for state-based actions and mana abilities. He can't return to the battlefield without resolving some type of stack-entering event in order to do so, can he?
March 4, 2013 12:29 p.m.
I'm pretty sure the delayed trigger would trigger regardless of whether or not you replaced the exile with returning to command zone. The "if you do" clause doesn't rely on Obzedat actually being in exile; choosing to exile and then replacing exile with CZ should still count for setting up the delayed trigger.
March 4, 2013 12:35 p.m.
Yes, it has to use the stack. Because you can arrange the "beginning of upkeep" effects in order. In which case, I could see the argument that Stifle does in fact work. If it does, then I'd say he's definitely exiled.
This is a great question, btw.
March 4, 2013 12:39 p.m.
Absinthman says... #14
Yeah it indeed is a great question. Initially, I was actually inclined towards it being one ability, but then I thought exactly about what you're talking about. If it didn't use the stack when it returned, then how would it actually work? I'm glad that every time I begin to think that I know much about MTG and how it works, a question like this arises to put me in my place. :-D
March 4, 2013 12:43 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #15
Obzedat, Ghost Council's ability does two things. First, it exiles Obzedat, Ghost Council. Next, it sets up a delayed triggered ability. That DTA triggers at the beginning of your next upkeep. The DTA is a separate ability, and it can be countered independently of the first triggered ability (although countering the first ability means no DTA will be established).
You can Stifle the DTA to force Obzedat, Ghost Council to remain in exile. The replacement effect that allows commanders to be put into the command zone can only apply when a commander would be put into exile or a graveyard. It doesn't apply if the card is already in one of those zones.
Also, note that if your opponent chooses to put Obzedat, Ghost Council into the command zone during the resolution of its triggered ability, the DTA will still be created and will still return Obzedat, Ghost Council to play because the DTA doesn't reference a card in exile or specifically search the exile zone.
March 4, 2013 12:58 p.m.
Absinthman says... #16
And once again, the people of TappedOut can be at peace.
March 4, 2013 1:01 p.m.
The answer raises all sorts of questions though.
If I'm playing him in commander and I'm all like "dum de dum, what's a stifle?" and I do not say anything as he gets exile, I instead just push him off to the side not expecting this to matter, then is it presumed I exiled him?
Alternatively, I'm like, "sneaky jerk got me last game, he's totally going commander zone every time!"
So, if he is going back and forth to the commander zone each time I blink him, does that raise his cast from commander zone costs by 2 colorless each blink?
March 4, 2013 1:04 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #18
Because applying the replacement effect to send him to the command zone is optional, you need to make it clear that you're doing it. If you don't say anything then it should be assumed you let him go to the exile zone. In my group, if someone just started the game by telling everyone "Okay, so every time I blink Obzedat I'm going to put him in the command zone instead of exile", we would count that as sufficient notice, but you need to check with the people you play with to see what they think.
The commander tax doesn't count how many times the card has gone to the command zone, but how many times it's been cast from the command zone. Blinking Obzedat in and out of the command zone won't increase the tax.
March 4, 2013 1:14 p.m.
Absinthman says... #19
- "dum de dum, what's a stifle?"
If you do this, you opponent can interrupt your action and say: wait, while the "you may exile ability is on the stack"---> stifle. In this case, Obzedat would remain on the battlefield no matter where you initially intended to blink him to (exile or commander zone). If he or she does nothing, you must specifically say that you're using the commander's replacement effect. Otherwise it is considered exiled as per the ability's wording. - When your upkeep comes and Obzedat would return from whatever of the two zones you're allowed to move him into, your opponent gets another chance to Stifle it. If Obzedat is in exile, he'll remain there and you won't be allowed to move it to the commander zone, because he is not going into exile, he's just staying there. On the other hand, if you moved him into the commander zone instead of exile, he'll remain there when stifled and as such can be recast as normally as per Commander rules.
- The commander costs 2 more for every time you cast it from your command zone. Since "blinking" Obzedat using his ability is not "casting" it, it doesn't impose any oadditional payments.
March 4, 2013 1:16 p.m.
Well, I certainly learned a little more about the EDH format than I bargained for! I thank you all for the information, and am sorry that this one got so cluttered.
March 4, 2013 2:05 p.m.
Moral of the story: always send Obzedat, Ghost Council to the command zone when using his ability.
March 4, 2013 7:02 p.m.
According to rules 603.6. and 603.7. Obz' second ability sets up a delayed trigger upon resolution on the first trigger. At end of turn, you may exile Obz. If you do, the reentry delayed trigger is set up.
When you exile Obz you may choose to instead send him to the command zone as a replacement. If you do this, at the beggining of your next upkeep the trigger will go on the stack, but because Obz is not in exile the effect will not return him to play.
603.6. on zone-change triggers "During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything."
By choosing to use the commander replacement affect you counter the delayed zone change trigger.
Moral of the story: If you want to run Obz as a general, be aware that his trigger can be countered unless you send him to the command zone and recast him each time you want to resolve his exile effect.
Scource: http://magiccards.info/rule/603-handling-triggered-abilities.html
August 27, 2014 4:02 p.m.
After reading that it is could be interpreted as " since i choose to use the replacement effect the ability will look for him in the zone that he went to, and not the original destination of the ability" so for clarity's sake.
"603.7c A delayed triggered ability that refers to a particular object still affects it even if the object changes characteristics. However, if that object is no longer in the zone its expected to be in at the time the delayed triggered ability resolves, the ability wont affect it. (Note that if that object left that zone and then returned, its a new object and thus wont be affected. See rule 400.7.))
August 27, 2014 4:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
I'll point out that you necroed an almost 18-month-old thread when the complete and correct explanation was given earlier in post #15. While it's fine to post if you think something has been in error, our answers are typically fact-checked in a short window of time, and you must be absolutely certain before posting that you are making a significant and correct contribution to the discussion.
August 27, 2014 4:50 p.m.
The difference between what i posted and what was posted in post #15 is that 15 says that if you replace the exile effect by sending him to the command zone than the next upkeeps trigger will go on the stack and return him to play. What i said is that by using the replacement effect you are changing the intended zone for the upkeep trigger, so when that trigger resolves on the stack it will be unable to effect the obz you have redirected to the command zone. hence my pointing out 603.7c. specifically the clause about the object no longer being in the expected zone.
This came up for me in a game a few days ago, that's why I'm looking this up, i assumed that pointing out what i interpreted to be an error, even if it is in an old post, would be the proper etiquette, so as to make us all more well informed magic players. If that was rude, and the better thing to do would have been create an entirely new post about the same subject than I apologize. No offense intended.
August 27, 2014 5:52 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #27
Post #15 explains that 603.7c is irrelevant because the DTA never looks for a card in exile. It looks for Obzedat, Ghost Council , which it finds in the command zone.
August 27, 2014 6:07 p.m.
Sorry, still need more clarification.
I understand that the reenter ability is a delayed zone-change triggered ability as described in 603 and not a linked ability as is described in 607.
If it were a linked ability it would need to look for that card in exile, and wouldn't work. This I get.
But I don't understand what that has to do with 603.7c which refers specifically to DTA, which is what this card has, and not LA. I'm not trying to imply that this card "looks" for Obzedat in the exile zone, I'm saying that when the affect resolves, Obzedat is no longer an object that is in any way connected to it.
Does this mean that that trigger will just pull any Obzedat from anywhere? If it isn't in the expected zone when the ability resolves why would it come back.
If the card said "return this card" it might be more clear to me, but by using the word "it" the card is implying that your returning the same object to play from an expected zone.
Perhaps I'm hung up on that, but considering the card is causing it's own zone-change, and that the rules state that the card must be in the expected zone or else it will not be affected by the delayed triggered ability, it just doesn't make sense to me that it would be able to circumnavigate what appears plain with a replacement affect.
I can't find any numbered rule that can explain why this would happen.
I'm sorry if i am coming off as a jerk again, this just doesn't seem to match up to close scrutiny, and i can't find any logical loop holes in either the commander, object, replacement, or ability rule sections. Feel free to ignore me if I am a jerk, if not I would be grateful if you could point me to some specific rules that explain this to me.
August 27, 2014 7:20 p.m.
Does 603.7c only refer to zones such as GY, battlefield?
For instance, is this only in reference to abilities such as "at the begging of the endstep, exile this creature", or "at the beginning of your upkeep, return this creature from your graveyard to play".
Does this rule not apply to things that blink?
August 27, 2014 7:30 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #30
The effect doesn't say "return ~ from exile to the battlefield." It only says "return it to the battlefield." Therefore, the effect does not look specifically in exile for Obzedat, Ghost Council . Because there is no "expected zone," there's no reason for 603.7c to apply.
Additionally, the "if you do" qualifier (in case this was a point of concern) means "if you make this choice" rather than "if this card is exiled." Therefore, replacement effects don't interfere with the creation of the DTA.
August 27, 2014 7:32 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #31
Even though it doesn't actually trigger until the beginning of your next upkeep, the delayed triggered ability is created during the resolution of the "At the beginning of your end step" ability. The DTA's use of the word "it" references the object that created it, which is the Obzedat currently in the command zone.
Your quotation of 603.6 has something very important for explaining the interaction. "These abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to". This is what is meant in 603.7c by the "expected" zone. The replacement effect of the command zone rule changed the result of the resolution of the "at the beginning of your end step" ability. Obzedat moved to exile, and that's the "expected" zone for the DTA.
August 27, 2014 7:48 p.m.
Ahhh, ok, so the replacement affect takes place before resolution of the affect, so the intended destination is irrelevant. By "expected zone" the rules are saying the zone which the object was in at the time of resolution and not the intended destination.
Thank you for investing so much time explaining this to me, I know it's super nitpicky and fringe, but having learned something I owe you one. Sorry for being thick.
August 27, 2014 7:56 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #33
Whoops, the last sentence of my post is supposed to say "Obzedat moved to command...", which was of course the whole point of making that post. -_-
Glad I could help.
BrokenZygoma says... #1
That's right he would be trapped forever. The "commander effect" if you will is a replacement effect. It gives you the choice to send it back to the commander zone, or let it go to exile (or the graveyard). Once you choose one, the other option no longer exists until he is returned to the battlefield in some way.
March 4, 2013 11:38 a.m.