Tournament etiquette/rules
Asked by Apoptosis 11 years ago
Something somewhat shitty happened earlier this week in a local tournament, and I wanted to see what the tappedout community thought about it.
My opponent has a Young Pyromancer with a token in play. On his turn he casts Phytoburst , pointing the card in the direction of the pyromancer. In response, I cast "burn" (Turn / Burn ) to kill the pyromancer with the assumption that he was targeting the pyromancer with the Phytoburst . After the Young Pyromancer is in the graveyard, he pauses and says that he was targeting the token and that I cast before he could declare a target. Technically he never stated that the Young Pyromancer was the intended target, but it was somewhat implicit in his gesture (the token was just a solitary die that was easy to miss). In fact he had placed the Phytoburst into the graveyard as well, before making that claim. Thus the Young Pyromancer dies and the token becomes a 6/6, whereupon he quickly casts [[armed] and swings for lethal (I was at 14 life) and wins the match 1-2. I should point out that there was a good pause after he declared that he was casting Phytoburst as I told him I was thinking about a response and I didn't rush to immediately say that I was casting burn.
My store uses "casual" rules for these sort of disputes, so I felt that if I made a stink I could have successfully argued that at the time he was revising his actions to a more favorable result for himself (and that therefore I should be allowed to do the same). But when it happened I just said "fuck it", decided I didn't want to make a fuss and didn't really care. I play in these tournaments for fun and don't really care about winning packs, and didn't want the hassle. It wasn't until later that night that it really started to eat at me and pissed me off somewhat (which means I made the wrong choice in not arguing the point).
Anyway, I wanted to post this to see what people thought. Maybe it would help out someone else in the future to prevent something like this from happening to them. What's the technical rule? What's the proper etiquette? And how do people usually deal with these things when something ambiguous occurs (like casting a spell and not specifically verbally indicating the intended target but using nonverbal cues to imply a target)?
Smith_and_Tonic says... Accepted answer #2
The target of the spell is declared when it is cast and no one receives priority between casting a spell and declaring targets. If you called a judge, I believe the judge would have rolled back the board state to when Phytoburst was cast and your opponent would have to declare a target. After that, you would receive priority and kill whatever the target was. If you are unsure, call a judge. There is nothing wrong with calling a judge or trying to talk it out with an opponent. The judge is there for a reason and if someone doesn't follow the rules (as your opponent did) then the judge will sort it out.
August 15, 2013 4:12 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #3
The central issue here is that neither you nor your opponent were playing technically correctly (he should have definitively declared a target, otherwise you should have asked "on what?"). That's what led to the "miscommunication" and caused your big problem. Smith_and_Tonic's suggestion is the most correct way to resolve a problem like this.
August 15, 2013 4:18 p.m.
When you get into rulings like this You get into a grey area of trying to determine intent
If he took an action (such as gesturing toward the pyromancer) with the Intent to deceive you or switch the target to whatever it was that you didn't remove than that is CHEATING and he should be disqualified from the tournament.
If he didn't intend to cheat, and just didn't actually yet communicate what his target of the spell was, than he didn't even finish casting the spell, and you CAN'T respond at that point since you haven't received priority yet. In this case your decision has to be taken back.
August 15, 2013 4:19 p.m.
Thanks meecht and Smith_and_Tonic.
In hindsight I realize that I should have asked a judge or for the target, but I missed that there was even a token on the board (he used a die and not a card). It was that and the fact that he pointed Phytoburst at the pyromancer, which made me miss the fact that their was even a choice between targets. meecht, I think you are absolutely right that he changed targets because of my response.
Technically, you have to state your target when you place a targeted spell or ability on the stack. You could have said that since he did not state his target, he had not yet passed priority to allow you to respond to his cast. The game state would then revert back to when he cast Phytoburst because of an illegal move on your part. -That is really good to know. I hadn't thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense and might have made a big difference on the outcome of the night.
Oh well, I appreciate the feedback. I feel a little better knowing that I did get a little screwed.
August 15, 2013 4:21 p.m.
Thanks Rhadamanthus and Sam_I_am. I appreciate the feedback. These are the sort of mistakes I'm trying to eliminate from my play, but I only get out once every month or two and it's easy to screw up.
August 15, 2013 4:24 p.m.
Smith_and_Tonic says... #7
That raises another interesting point. I always ask my opponents to use some rectangular to denote a token. This allows you to know whether the token is tapped and you can use a die on top of it to either denote P/T or number of those tokens. This is so there is no confusion and you can't miss the token when it is sitting on the board.
August 15, 2013 4:24 p.m.
Smith_and_Tonic usually i do too. This one time I didn't and it cost me. Another lesson learned.
August 15, 2013 4:26 p.m.
from the Infraction Procedure Guide
If the situation is simple enough to safely back up without too much disruptionto the course of the game, the judge may get permission from the Head Judge to back up the game to the point of the incorrect information. Each action taken is undone until the game reaches the point immediately prior to the error. Cards incorrectly placedin hand are returned to the location in the zone from which they were moved (if the identity of the incorrectly drawn card is not known to all players, a random card is returned instead). Once the game is backed up, it continues from that point.
August 15, 2013 4:29 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
And for FNM, instead of using the IPG the Judge goes by the philosophy in the JAR (Judging at Regular REL) document. It's basically a watered-down IPG where the Judge response to any situation falls into one of two categories:
- Fix it as best he can and explain what's happening, backing up as far as it makes sense (and is possible)
- DQ someone for either cheating or doing some other Very Bad Thing
meecht says... #1
Even though he gestured toward Young Pyromancer with Phytoburst , you should still ask what he's targeting. Since you run Turn / Burn , I assume you're playing a control-y deck, so this is a good habit to get in when playing.
Technically, you have to state your target when you place a targeted spell or ability on the stack. You could have said that since he did not state his target, he had not yet passed priority to allow you to respond to his cast. The game state would then revert back to when he cast Phytoburst because of an illegal move on your part.
My gut, though, says he changed his intended target because of your response. Due to his pause when he placed Pyromancer in the graveyard, he probably realized he had lethal if he cast Phytoburst and Armed / Dangerous on the token. He didn't explicitly state his target and you didn't ask for one, so he used that technicality to his advantage.
August 15, 2013 4:09 p.m.