State based action with +1 and -1 counters
Asked by darkmatter32x 4 years ago
I have a Geralf's Messenger with a +1/+1 counter on it.
My opponent puts three -1/-1 counters on it on one go, Torment of Venom for arguements sake.
I was told undying won't trigger again. Why?
I get the impression that those counters in question cancells each other out.
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
February 20, 2020 10:44 a.m. Edited.
The exact Undying example is in the rules. The reason is the permanent dies from an earlier SBA and the SBA that cancels the counters out does not have a chance to do its thing, since the permanent is no more:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
704.5q If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
In short, F is before Q.
February 20, 2020 10:51 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
Boza: The game doesn't distinguish between "earlier" and "later" SBAs in that way. They're all handled simultaneously whenever they need to happen.
704.3 Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 117, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event...
February 20, 2020 1:27 p.m. Edited.
I had the correct rule the first time, but I had to go and be a Smart Ass...
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
The reason it happens that way is in the details of exactly how SBAs and "dies" triggers are processed.
When the game needs to execute SBAs, they're all done simultaneously and then checked again to see if any more need to be addressed as a result of that. In your example this means a +1/+1 and -1/-1 counter cancel each other out at the same time Geralf's Messenger is put into the graveyard for having 0 toughness.
"Dies" triggers (and other triggers based on leaving the battlefield) look back at the last moment the object was still on the battlefield to determine if and how they trigger. In your example, because of how the SBAs were handled, Geralf's Messenger still had a +1/+1 counter at the last moment it was still on the battlefield. Undying doesn't trigger.
February 20, 2020 10:17 a.m.