Spoiler Alert: New Omnath Confusion
Asked by Jimmy_Chinchila 9 years ago
Ok so if Omnath, Locus of Rage or any elemental dies, he deals 3 damage. Is he dealing this damage from the grave? The stack here confuses me: hes' dealt lethal damage which doesn't trigger the effect because the damage resolution hasn't occurred. Once it does, he's no longer on the battlefield and triggered abilities don't trigger for creatures in the graveyard. Right? I'm missing something.
If I have Omnath and Whisperwood Elemental out and I get hit with a sweeper, in response I sac Whisperwood, would they both die, Omnath deals 6 damage and I manifest 2 creatures? This is the interaction that got me confused.
Omnath does the damage for others while on the battlefield. His death trigger is from the graveyard, yes.
September 5, 2015 10:36 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #3
Damage does not use the stack and doesn't resolve, in combat it is simply dealt as a turn-based action and outside of combat it is dealt as the result of other effects resolving, then state-based actions take care of the rest. Damage once used the stack, but that was back before 10th edition.
When an event triggers an ability it goes on the stack at its next available opportunity and once on the stack it is completely independent of its source. If Omnath, Locus of Rage dies his ability triggers and yes, he would be dealing that damage from the graveyard. "When [this] dies" triggers are special in that they can track a card between the zones necessary for those abilities to function.
In the scenario you described you would only manifest 1 creature from the top of your deck. 2 Elementals die, triggering Omanth twice, then Omnath, having gained an additional triggered ability from Whisperwood Elemental's sacrifice ability, would have you manifest the top card of your library. Whisperwood Elemental does not benefit from its own activated ability because sacrificing it is part of the cost to activate it, so when the ability resolves it's already in the graveyard.
September 5, 2015 10:38 p.m. Edited.
Jimmy_Chinchila says... #4
Makes sense now, thank you. FancyTuesday great description, so thorough!! Thanks again I learned something new!
September 5, 2015 11:39 p.m.
Jimmy_Chinchila says... #5
FancyTuesday I started playing around Revised Unlimited, musta had the damage stack stuck in my head from then. Had a long gap after Ice Ages.
September 5, 2015 11:41 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #6
@Jimmy_Chinchila: I know that feeling. I started playing during the Mirage block and went out with 8th Edition, when I came back around M12 I had a lot of catching up to do. Gone are the days where you could swing with Mogg Fanatic, put damage on the stack and sac it to ping before it died.
September 6, 2015 12:41 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
FYI: Omnath isn't dealing damage "from the graveyard". A "dies" trigger is a special kind of "leaves the battlefield" trigger, and LTB triggers trigger from the battlefield and use information from the last moment the triggering object was on the battlefield. This distinction can matter sometimes. For example, consider something was changing Omnath's color or giving it lifelink or deathtouch while it was on the battlefield. The ability (and the damage) will be coming from a source with whatever characteristics Omnath had while it was still on the battlefield.
September 6, 2015 9:08 a.m.
The rules:
603.6c. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game. These are written as, but aren't limited to, "When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . ." or "Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . ." An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone "from anywhere" is never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the battlefield.
603.6d. Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to "look back in time" to determine if these abilities trigger.
MTGbrewer says... #1
Whisper wood dies, deals three via omnath, then the sweeper hits, kills omnath, another three from omnath. Then since omnath died you manifest one.Tl;DR you deal 6 and manifest one.
September 5, 2015 10:34 p.m.