signed cards in oficially sanctioned tournaments
Asked by scholar 13 years ago
Are you allowed to use signed cards (signed by artist) in officially sanctioned tournaments such as FNM? Or would such markings on cards stupidly count as "outside notes"? Thanks.
pretty sure that if your cards are sleeved up so the back of the card isnt noticeable of any indication marks on the card then your good..
Most Magic games use only traditional Magic cards, which measure approximately 2.5 inches (6.3 cm) by 3.5 inches (8.8 cm).
January 11, 2012 12:42 a.m.
tournament rules state
3.11 Marked CardsPlayers are responsible for ensuring that their cards and/or card sleeves are not marked during the course of the tournament. A card or sleeve is considered marked if it bears something that makes it possible to identify the card without seeing its face, including scratches, discoloration, and bends.If a players cards are sleeved, the cards must be examined while in the sleeves to determine if they are marked. Players should use care when sleeving their decks and should randomize their decks prior to sleeving them to reduce the possibility of cards becoming marked with a pattern. Players should also keep in mind that cards or sleeves may become worn and potentially marked through play during the course of a tournament.The Head Judge has the authority to determine if a card in a players deck is marked. Judges may request that a player remove his or her current sleeves or replace any of the decks current sleeves immediately, or before the next round.
January 11, 2012 12:47 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #4
A signed card is not a marked card, although the final determination is at the discretion of the Head Judge. Generally, outside notes written on cards are any markings not done for a clear aesthetic purpose or which raise suspicion (this is not an official definition, but a more or less accepted one).
By the same token, altered art cards are generally not considered marked.
January 11, 2012 1:53 a.m.
@Epochalyptik, since you mentioned altered art, would you off hand know any information about using altered art cards in tournaments or otherwise? Such as those player made cards featured on the mtgsalvation proxy thread forum? Would you be able to substitute an originally created proxy card of a real card, as long as you have the actual card standing by to prove such?
January 11, 2012 3:03 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
Altered art is very much a case-by-case matter. Some alterations (such as blackbordering old cards, extending artwork, etc.) are not a hindrance to gameplay or understanding. Others (completely changing the artwork, obscuring text, etc.) are disruptive to the flow and comprehension of the game. Ultimately, the Head Judge of the event has the final say in whether or not a card is marked.
In cases where a card is not easily or immediately identifiable/recognizable (because you have obscured or changed the original card to an extreme degree, for instance), then a judge may have you find a suitable-condition copy of the card or remove this card from your deck and replace it with a basic land. In some instances, a proxy may be provided for you.
For the purposes of your question, note that in the majority of cases, "marked" means that the card or sleeve of the card has been altered or oriented in some way that would provide additional information to a player. For example, you make a slight crease in the corner of the sleeve of one specific card. This card is now marked.
Alternatively, you orient your deck so that your lands are face-down and right-side up and your nonlands are face-down and rotated opposite your lands. This behavior constitutes not only marking, but manipulation of game materials, the penalty for which is immediate disqualification.
January 11, 2012 3:27 a.m.
@Epochalyptik, so if I change the artwork of an original card, provided it convenes no hindrance to understanding of the game or gameplay in general, I can by all means proxy alter artwork my entire deck?
If the above is true, how does this coincide with ownership of the original card? You must obviously possess the original card close by for proof of actually possessing said card, no?
January 11, 2012 3:48 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
As a general rule, the artwork should not be unrecognizable in relation to the original (for example, an extension of art would likely be alright while a complete change would not) or obscure information on the card.
In your situation, I would bring an unaltered original of each altered-art card and convene with the Head Judge prior to the beginning of the event to see if any card is unacceptable for use.
If you mean a complete change of a card, such as this version of Koth of the Hammer , then I would hesitate to use such a card in an event deck. Changes of this magnitude (and beyond) are likely to meet disapproval from the judges.
January 11, 2012 3:57 a.m.
Marked cards was the wrong section of the tournament rules to quote. The appropriate section is authorized cards. Here is the ruling you are looking for:
Artistic modifications are acceptable, provided that the modifications do not make the card unrecognizable or contain substantial strategic advice.
The Head Judge is the final authority on acceptable cards for a tournament.
Likely to be acceptable:
Likely to be questionable:
Tl;dr, if you are unsure, talk to a judge.
January 11, 2012 4:45 a.m.
my appologizes'.. i mistakenly assumed the phrase "outside notes" as shedidthistome had stated'... as a term used for mark'd cards.. an gave a rule quote of what a mark'd card is...i appreciate the corrections everyone'
January 11, 2012 5:10 a.m.
There seems to be a little confusion here, I asked two different questions, one on signed cards and the other on altered art. I got them both answered, so thanks to everyone for taking the time and sharing your insight.
I am just having a little trouble understanding one thing... @mafteechr, perhaps you could help me with this, since you pasted in some images.
What if I don't own the original said card in question?
For example, let's say I wanted to use Angelic Destiny in a FNM tournament and I don't own any of the original, official Angelic Destiny cards. But let's say I printed off damn good proxy extended artwork versions of the card:
http://redsunphoto.com/cards/angelic_destiny_super_art2_small.jpg (sorry my image codes aren't working apparently)
You (and others) say such cards are legal to use in official tournament play as long as they aren't too far off from the original, but in this case I don't even own original copies. Legal or no? In my opinion, there is no way such a circumstance could be legal, it would kill the buying and trading of the game.
January 11, 2012 5:29 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
No. This is counterfeiting, which is wholly different from altered artwork.
You may not use any cards in an event which are not actual Magic cards and which are not the card which you represent them to be. For example, you may use neither a fake proxy Angelic Destiny nor an Angelic Destiny proxied over a Forest or other non-Angelic Destiny card.
January 11, 2012 5:58 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
Altered cards are legal for use so long as they meet the approval of the judging staff, Head Judge presiding, and they are legitimate cards. Altered artwork implies that aesthetic changes have been made to a card with the intent of improving its aesthetic value.
Going along with an earlier statement, these alterations must not obscure or conceal information about the card. The original card must still be identifiable. Proxying one card over another, different card is concealing information and preventing the identification of the card.
January 11, 2012 6:01 a.m.
@Epochalyptik, this makes no sense to me, because the only way to "alter" artwork is to print over top of a card (be it the original or not) in some fashion. Take for instance the Koth of the Hammer image above.
January 11, 2012 6:34 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
There is a difference between adding to existing artwork while staying true to the identity of the card and completely changing the artwork and identity.
January 11, 2012 6:36 a.m.
so can I print off the following image and slap it onto any existing card and legally use it?
January 11, 2012 7:18 a.m.
That's questionable, really. The card would have to be indistinguishable from every other card in your deck. Printing out an image and slapping it on a card may increase the thickness enough to make it identifiable without seeing it's face. This can and will be considered marking a card, and it is illegal.
I was wrong, see below. I shouldn't post right when I wake up.
January 11, 2012 8:15 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #18
Proxies are never legal. Only the Head Judge can issue proxies, and only under very restrictive circumstances. If you print out a proxy art and glue it to another card, you've done two things:
1) You've created an illegal proxy card
2) You've completely obscured the card's art and rules text, to the point they're unrecognizable
You're going to get DQ'ed.
January 11, 2012 8:59 a.m.
Rhadamanthus is correct. By attaching a printed-out image on top of a real card, who is to say the actual card is Angelic Destiny or Giant Spider ?
Altered and signed cards are fine as long as they do not make the card unrecognized or provide strategic advice. Using proxies in a sanctioned tournament is not allowed. Additionally, printing art and attaching it to a card makes the card a proxy, and it is illegal to use.
January 11, 2012 9:15 a.m.
@mafteechr, what if you wanted to spice up the look of your deck and you had the real cards standing by to prove so, still illegal?
January 11, 2012 3:35 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #21
Having a substitute for a card in your deck instead of having the actual card in the deck is the very definition of a proxy. Sorry man, you're not going to find a way around this one.
January 11, 2012 3:39 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
The point we're all getting at is that the card represented by your finished artwork MUST be the card that it was before you did any alterations. You may not use artwork alterations to change one card into a completely different card. You may not use proxies.
January 11, 2012 4:13 p.m.
@Epochalyptik of all the answers, yours is the most clear. Thanks for that!
BadumPsh says... #1
I believe you are. The idea that I got is that, as long as the card in question is in Standard, you can use any edition, printing, and so on of that card. This counts for promos, official signings, and possibly (although I doubt it) home-made cards. But wait for someone more experienced from the site to follow-up, they'll have more answers and insight than I do.
January 11, 2012 12:21 a.m.