Runechanter's Pike and Dragon's Maze Split Cards
Asked by Ryeking31 12 years ago
If I have a Runechanter's Pike in play, and 2 Far / Away in my graveyard, does the pike give +2/+0 or +4/+0? Do fuse cards count as 1 instant/sorcery for this purpose?
I do know that it counts as only casting 1 spell when fused for Nivix Cyclops purposes but does this change when cards see them elsewhere?
No, a split card is still just 1 card with two card faces. it still only counts as one.
April 29, 2013 11:30 a.m.
@Devonin But since the a split card is two card faces on a single card, wouldn't it count as a single card? If not, then disregard my answer.
April 29, 2013 11:31 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #4
"Being a card" isn't a characteristic, it's a physical property of the card. A split card is only one card, and Runechanter's Pike counts cards. Split cards don't count double for the pike.
April 29, 2013 11:32 a.m.
Wait! Inconsistencies in the rules!
708.4. Although split cards have two castable halves, each split card is only one card. For example, a player who has drawn or discarded a split card has drawn or discarded one card, not two.
708.6a An effect that performs a positive comparison (such as asking if a card is red) or a relative comparison (such as asking if a card's converted mana cost is less than 2) involving characteristics of one or more split cards in any zone other than the stack gets only one answer. This answer is "yes" if either side of each split card in the comparison would return a "yes" answer if compared individually.
So the Pike asks "Is this card an instant" and the answer is yes because either side would return a "yes" if compared individually. This means that the pike would also see an instant/creature split card (which don't exist) as an instant.
But even though the card itself has two names, two mana costs, two sets of all characteristics, and thus two sets of values to check, it will still only return one result to the Pike after checking the type characteristic of both halves.
April 29, 2013 11:34 a.m.
I don't like the way that first rule is written. It very much suggests that since the card has two sets of characteristics, something like the Pike would ask "How many instances of an instant or a sorcery are in the graveyard? And Assault says "I'm an instant" and Battery says "I'm also an instant!" and would return "two instants"
I'd probably re-write it to read something like
"In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. If anything needs information about a split card not on the stack, it will be able to see two values, and if either value is true, the card will return 'yes' to that evaluation"
April 29, 2013 11:38 a.m.
@Dallie You're right that it will only count as one card.
April 29, 2013 11:39 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
I'm not really seeing the "inconsistency".
@Dallie: Yes, the rules pull that Devonin posted gives the full detail for it.
April 29, 2013 11:42 a.m.
@Devonin: At first I was really certain of my own point, but when I saw your post (after I had posted my own) I wasn't so sure. Thus I agree, that the wording of that rule could be misleading.
April 29, 2013 11:43 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
@Devonin: That's exactly what those rules say, your re-write just condenses them into one. I think each piece is important enough to stand on its own.
April 29, 2013 11:43 a.m.
The inconsistency is that it says "Anything asking about split cards will see two sets of characteristics" and doesn't make it clear until several clauses later that even though it has two sets of characteristics, and will return both sets of characteristics to any query, at the end of the day, it only cares whether one of those sets of characteristics returns a positive comparison. A very simple re-write of the primary clause pertaining to split cards would clear up a lot of rules confusion.
April 29, 2013 11:44 a.m.
brianguymtg says... #13
The check for instants with a split card is like asking two people, "Is anyone here male?" Regardless of whether one or both are, the answer is still the same. So, one answer is returned for each check for instants for a particular card. A split card with both sides being instant returns a yes for being an instant, but not for any other types. A split card that is an instant on one side and a sorcery on the other will give a yes to an instant check and a yes to a sorcery check, but think of a card check the same way you would report how many cards are in your deck - the split card is just that. One card. So to answer the OP, the Pike sees one card.
April 29, 2013 11:48 a.m.
It's more that, for example, that first clause about the cards returning both sets of characteristics is the only one that made it into the Dragon's Maze Pre-release rules primer. So I could easily see a case where some small LGS running a pre-release that doesn't have the benefit of anything other than the primer and a Rules Advisor hanging around to make rulings would come to an incorrect conclusion because that info was all that was presented to them as important to know about the split cards.
Or that players, having looked over the primer to make sure they knew what was going on, would let errors go by that could change the outcome of matches.
The rest of the FAQ on Fuse even goes so far as to point out that things like Duskmantle Seer would make you lose life equal to the mana cost of each half added together. It's an EASY step to assume that if you lose life for both mana costs, that the Pike would count both instances of "This is an instant"
April 29, 2013 11:49 a.m.
@brianguymtg
Your analogy only works if the question was for Tarmagoyf, which only cares whether there are any instants, and not how many.
Here's one for you:
If you asked "how MANY men are in this room" and there were 2 men, and also a pair of conjoined male twins. Are there 3 men or 4 men in the room?
April 29, 2013 11:51 a.m.
brianguymtg says... #16
The analogy was for the instant check on one card, sorry if I wasn't clear. The overall check for instants in a particular area is a different discussion. One card, one value, for things that count how many there are. So, for the pike, you would count how many cards return true for either instant or sorcery. Either way, a split card would be counted once, and you can make the decision yourself whether the card was counted as a sorcery or an instant. Hope that helped.
April 29, 2013 11:57 a.m.
Yeah, I get that this is how the rule worked. I even posted the rules that show this is how it works. My point is that it is inconsistently worded in a way that is confusing.
Ie: The later clauses of the rule demonstrate the 'one card : one value' proposition, but earlier clauses say "Actually it has two sets of values, and checks can see both" and in particular with the Dragon's Maze FAQ, gives some examples that really make it look like both halves would be counted by the Pike (Since both halves are counted for other things)
I mean, case in point: My first and inaccurate answer to the question came from my checking the DGM FAQ for fuse cards, and seeing that answer. It's a mistake a lot of people would make because it doesn't seem unclear at all, certainly not enough to make me go "Actually, let me go check the comprehensive rules for Split Cards as well just to make sure"
April 29, 2013 12:01 p.m.
brianguymtg says... #18
The closest comparison made that I can see is artifact creatures. The cards that look will see both, but will only count for the check once. Artifact checks see an artifact, creature checks see a creature, but looking for both still only sees the one card. Just think of the card as a instant sorcery when it is not on the stack.
April 29, 2013 12:04 p.m.
I think brianguymtg's last comment there (#18) hit the nail on the head. Runechanter's Pike is basically counting up how many individual cards say "yes" when asked "Are you an instant or sorcery?" rather than how many individual "yes" answers it gets. Both are counting, the difference is in which property (card vs. card type) is being counted first.
April 29, 2013 1:41 p.m.
count = 0
for each(card in graveyard)
if(card is Instant or card is Sorcery) count++
return count
Devonin says... #1
"In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. If anything needs information about a split card not on the stack, it will get two values."
Runechanter's Pike will see two instants/sorceries in the Graveyard from split cards.
April 29, 2013 11:27 a.m.