Retraction Helix question
Asked by w4rped 10 years ago
Ok so here's the question. I know it's not the infinite combo thing, or really an ultimate combo. Just possibly a good combo I want to use.Retraction Helix + Jeskai Ascendancy Now the way the stack works is first in last out, right? So if I cast retraction helix on a creature it triggers the jeskai ascendancy (which goes on the stack first). Then the helix successfully casts, which gives the creature an ability since its after the ascendancy on the stack. Now, in response to the successful casting, I tap my creature to return a permanent which goes on the stack. The ability resolves, and then the ascendancy resolves which untaps the creature that used its ability. Now I can use that same creature's ability again.This is just a question about the stack rules in this situation and I can't find anything that is a similar situation online. This is basically abusing the stack rules if it works, but I need to know if it does.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #2
Not again.
Rules questions go in the Q&A, which is linked in the header. I can't move this to the Q&A, so I'm moving it to BE.
Abilities that trigger when you're casting a spell, activating an ability, or resolving either a spell or ability always wait until that process is finished before they can be put onto the stack. Furthermore, the first thing you do when casting a spell or activating an ability is announce the spell or ability, then put it onto the stack. After that, you make all other choices for it and pay its costs.
So you cast Retraction Helix , which goes onto the stack first. Jeskai Ascendency's ability triggers, and the ability goes on top of the stack. The ability resolves first, then Retraction Helix resolves. You can't get an extra untap as you want to.
November 2, 2014 6:01 p.m.
Ok, well the answers are appreciated, but maybe explain why other things work differently then? For example with heroic creature. When I cast a spell that targets the heroic creature the heroic trigger goes on the stack first before the spell is cast. Then once the spell successfully casts, it resolves. It is possible to react to the spell successfully casting and completing before the heroic trigger resolves. I know this is how heroic works because judges are constantly giving me this ruling at events when people kill my creature as I trigger it's heroic ability. So if you extrapolate the situation to the ascendancy it should work, in theory. I need to know why it works for heroic and not for the ascendancy. Please explain if you can.
November 2, 2014 6:48 p.m.
Also, this question was about standard specifically. So I assumed it could be taken care of in this forum. Now you moved my question to an area where no one will see it at all?
November 2, 2014 6:51 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
It doesn't work for heroic. Please read what I wrote in post #2.
The question has nothing to do with Standard apart from the fact that the cards all happen to be legal in Standard (and in every other format). The forums are not the appropriate place to ask rules questions.
November 2, 2014 7:14 p.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #6
Rulings questions are not about Standard. They are about rules. You are responsible for putting your questions in the proper forum, which, in this case, is the MTG Q&A. If you can't be bothered to put it there, then it will be moved to the Blind Eternities.
I'm not sure you understand what casting a spell entails. When you cast a spell, you place it on the stack. Any triggers that occur from "casting a spell" are placed on the stack on top of the spell. There are never exceptions to this rule. When you cast a spell targeting a creature with Heroic, the Heroic trigger resolves before the spell does. I do not believe for a second that judges are expressly telling you that Heroic goes on the stack before the spell does. If you explain this situation more clearly, I might be able to explain the ruling they're actually giving you, but "killing my creature" is too vague.
November 2, 2014 7:16 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
They're probably trying to tell you that they can respond to the heroic trigger by killing your creature, which they can. Spells and nonmana abilities don't resolve instantly. They only resolve after players pass priority in succession. The heroic ability will already be on the stack, and removing the source from the battlefield won't counter the ability.
November 2, 2014 7:18 p.m.
I know for sure that the spell does not resolve before the heroic trigger. But you can respond to the heroic trigger and resolve something before it happens. For example dealing 1 damage before it gains a +1/+1 counter and killing it.
Now if you extrapolate this to the other cards mentioned you will see where my theory makes sense.
November 2, 2014 7:39 p.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #9
No, your theory makes no sense. If you know that the spell doesn't resolve before the heroic trigger, then why did you say "When I cast a spell that targets the heroic creature the heroic trigger goes on the stack first before the spell is cast. Then once the spell successfully casts, it resolves." You're directly contradicting yourself now. Remember, first in, last out.
There is no difference between "successfully casting" and "casting." When you cast a spell, it's now on the stack. Then any triggers go on top of that. There is no "successful casting" after the trigger, you're passed that point already.
Maybe you're failing to realize that your opponent's spells don't trigger Heroic on your creatures? That would be how a kill spell targets and destroys your creature without it getting Heroic buffs.
November 2, 2014 7:48 p.m.
Nevermind. I don't care anymore. I'll just go with the judge ruling at the match. I can't explain it right here apparently.
November 2, 2014 8:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after they've been made.
601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2ag are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell's controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
Furthermore, there's no "successful" casting. You cast the spell. That's it. Whether the spell is countered has no impact on whether the spell was cast. The spell is cast at the moment its casting process is complete.
And you can't activate the ability granted by Retraction Helix in response to Jeskai Ascendency's ability because Retraction Helix hasn't resolved yet.
You have the wrong interpretation of the stack. You mistakenly believe that you can slide a spell or ability in below the spell that triggers Jeskai Ascendency or heroic. As I explained, that's not possible because abilities that trigger when a player casts a spell will trigger after the spell is already on the stack.
November 2, 2014 8:18 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #12
Let's explicitly explain how this happens, shall we. For the sake of this post, you are targeting Tek with Retraction Helix .
With Jeskai Ascendency in play, you cast Retraction Helix on Tek . Retraction Helix is placed on the stack. Jeskai Ascendency triggers, and its ability is also placed on the stack.
The stack:
top
Jeskai Ascendency
Retraction Helix
bottom
Nobody has any responses, so the abilities of Jeskai Ascendency begin to resolve. In some order, you draw a card and discard a card, your creatures become +1/+1 larger, and your creatures all untap.
The stack:
top
Retraction Helix
bottom
Retraction Helix resolves, granting your Tek an ability. Provided Tek does not have summoning sickness, he is free to use his ability.
Because all of the triggers from Jeskai Ascendency have already resolved, Tek will have to remain tapped if he uses his ability. He will untap again if you cast another noncreature spell.
Your confusion seems to be at the ordering of the stack immediately after you cast your Retraction Helix . When you cast it, it is immediately placed on the stack. Retraction Helix being placed on the stack then triggers Jeskai Ascendency, which is placed on the stack above Retraction Helix . Because the stack resolves FILO, as you mentioned, Jeskai Ascendency's triggers resolve first, untapping your creatures before Retraction Helix has granted them any abilities.
benzzer853 says... #1
No, this doesn't work. The retraction helix goes on the stack first because you cast it and the ascendancy triggers off of it thus going on the stack afterwards.So the ascendancy triggers will resolve before the helix grants the ability to the creature.
November 2, 2014 5:36 p.m.