Mindbreak Trap vs Redirect
Asked by emblasochist 12 years ago
I've been looking at the UR Storm deck Modern's been seeing a lot of recently, and I realize that Mindbreak Trap poses a very serious threat against Storm decks, as it can remove any and all spells still on the stack. My question is this; can Redirect effectively fizzle Mindbreak Trap by changing the target of Mindbreak Trap to itself, or does Redirect only change one of Mindbreak Trap's many possible targets, thus invalidating the value of Redirect against it?
emblasochist says... #2
What I meant is, can Player A use Redirect to cause Player B's Mindbreak Trap to target the Redirect, causing it to fizzle, or because Mindbreak Trap can have any number of legal targets, does Redirect only necessarily change one target of the spell it targets?
October 1, 2012 4:37 a.m.
tommyjohn05 says... #3
the reason redirect works is because the word targets is plural giving you the ability to change all of the targets to redirect.
October 1, 2012 4:57 a.m.
emblasochist says... #4
I understand the logic in saying that, but I just want to get a rules confirmation, certain cards specify that a card must have different targets, such as when a card says "another". Redirect doesn't use the word "another" obviously, but at the same time, it uses the word targets, plural, suggesting that if the spell has multiple targets, they must be different. Oracle's rules text also doesn't specify one way or another either, so it still seems unclear.
October 1, 2012 5:09 a.m.
Crocosaurus says... #5
Because Mindbreak trap can have any number, it can be one target. Just because one person chooses four spells doesn't mean all four targets can't be the same thing. If it said "Exile four target spells" or something, it might be different.
I think.
October 1, 2012 5:35 a.m.
Phobophile says... #6
yes, you can change EVERY target from Mindbreak Trap using your Redirect .
you get to choose new targets for the spell, what it was targetting before, and how many spells it was targetting is irrelevant.
cast your Redirect and say "i'm choosing my own Redirect as the new target for your Mindbreak Trap ." the redirect resolves, changing the target of the Mindbreak Trap to only target ONE spell, the redirect that used to be on the stack. now since your redirect has already resolved, his spell no longer has it's legal target, and "fizzles".
October 1, 2012 8:38 a.m.
Phobophile says... #7
crocosaurus, you're right in saying that if the card says "counter 4 spells" you HAVE to be able to target fouyr different spells to cast it, and you HAVE to have four legal targets to resolve Redirect against it, but not to cast Redirect . most spells of this nature say "up to # of spells" simply to avoid this confusion, and make the cards usable,
for example, look at the wording on Double Negative , it says "up to two spells" so that it can still be used to counter one spell.
October 1, 2012 8:41 a.m.
GoblinsInc says... Accepted answer #8
- You can cast redirect on mindbreak trap. This allows you to change the targets of mindbreak trap, but does not allow you to change the number of targets. If mindbreak trap was cast with 10 targets, it must still have ten targets after redirect finishes resolving.
- You cannot choose the same object for all 10 targets. You're only going to allow one spell to get through, not fizzle the entire mindbreak trap.
114.4. A spell or ability on the stack is an illegal target for itself.
114.6d If an effect allows a player to choose new targets for a spell or ability, the player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must be legal and must not cause any unchanged targets to become illegal.
114.6e When changing targets or choosing new targets for a spell or ability, only the final set of targets is evaluated to determine whether the change is legal.
October 1, 2012 9:36 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
Alright, there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread. Hopefully I can settle some things:
Mindbreak Trap can target any number of spells. This number is chosen during the casting process and cannot be changed later on. When it is cast, Mindbreak Trap may only choose any number of unique targets. However, the targets do not need to be unique on resolution.
A spell or ability fizzles only if ALL of its targets are illegal upon resolution. Removing some of the targets will not counter the spell.
Redirect can change the targets (plural; targets meaning all targets of the targeted spell) of target spell to Redirect because Redirect is still on the stack when it is resolving. However, a spell on the stack is an illegal target for itself, so Mindbreak Trap can't be made to target itself.
Redirect can change each target of Mindbreak Trap to Redirect . Then, when Mindbreak Trap attempts to resolve, it will fizzle because all of its targets are illegal (all of its targets were Redirect , which has now left the stack).
October 1, 2012 9:36 a.m.
GoblinsInc says... #10
Epoch. Redirect cannot make mindbreak trap target the same object multiple times for a single instance of the word "Target"
October 1, 2012 9:38 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #12
Using an effect that changes targets doesn't allow you to change the number of targets chosen when the spell was cast, it only allows you to change what the current targets are. Also, because Mindbreak Trap 's text only uses one instance of the word "target", the same object can't be chosen as more than one of the targets. If there's a Trap on the stack with 12 targets, using Redirect or something similar means you have to change them to 12 distinct objects.
The following Rule is why you can't change all 12 targets to Redirect :
114.3. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on a spell or ability. If the spell or ability uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). This rule applies both when choosing targets for a spell or ability and when changing targets or choosing new targets for a spell or ability (see rule 114.6).
The following Rule describes how for each target, you may either change it to something else or leave it where it is (that is, you can't "un-choose" it):
114.6d If an effect allows a player to "choose new targets" for a spell or ability, the player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must be legal and must not cause any unchanged targets to become illegal.
hairlord says... #1
Redirect can't change the target of Mindbreak Trap to itself since it's not a legal target, but Redirect can make Mindbreak Trap target the Redirect and just the Redirect effectively countering it
October 1, 2012 4:30 a.m.