Miming Slime/Kin-Tree Invocation and ****/**** creatures (***** = number of creatures you control)

Asked by siukong 9 years ago

How would the value of X be determined for a Miming Slime or Kin-Tree Invocation token if you control a creature with "~'s power and toughness are equal to the number of creatures you control" (the most recent examples of this being Seraph of the Masses and Eidolon of Countless Battles )? For simplicity's sake, let's assume the latter is the only creature you control and is a 1/1 before you cast the sorcery.

From rule 608.2g, my understanding is that the value of X for the token is checked as the effect (putting the token on the battlefield) is applied, which would mean you get a 2/2 token. However, 608.2g also says to use 'current information' if a specific object is being referenced. Whether 'current information' means before or simultaneously with the effect being applied is unclear to me.

608.2g [under 'Resolving Spells and Abilities -> Instant/Sorcery/Ability']:

If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that's become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if it's in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it's no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object's last known information. See rule 112.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it's the object as it existsor as it most recently existedthat does it, not the ability.

Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1

The rule you quote is relevant, but everything has to be done in the correct order. The token is created with whatever characteristics defined by the spell or ability creating it, meaning they're determined before it's actually put onto the battlefield. In your example, X=1, so you get a 1/1 token.

October 9, 2014 11:04 a.m.