Is there a defending Player
Asked by Chaospyke 1 year ago
I am attacked by a creature with Annihilator. With the annihilator trigger on the stack, I flash in Windshaper Planetar and redirect the attack to a planeswalker I control. I then flicker that planeswalker with another effect.
Do I have to sacrifice anything due to the annihilator trigger? Is there a defender player at this point?
This ruling refers to creatures being removed from combat. In my scenario, the creature is not being removed from combat, the planeswalker is. The creature is still attacking.
August 14, 2022 1:10 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #3
You won't have to sacrifice permanents. The following rule says the creature is not attacking anything in this situation.
506.4c If a creature is attacking a planeswalker, removing that planeswalker from combat doesn't remove that creature from combat. It continues to be an attacking creature, although it is attacking neither a player nor a planeswalker. It may be blocked. If it is unblocked, it will deal no combat damage.
Together with the rule Gidgetimer quoted, it means there is no "defending player" in your example.
August 15, 2022 10:14 a.m.
I don't think that is accurate.
The 'attacking' player has priority, he declares an attack, those triggers go on the stack, then priority passes and the defending player who flickers his planeswalker. The flicker goes on the stack and resolves, then the annillilator triggers still resolve. All that happens in the declare attack phase, then the declare blockers phase would happen, but in this case there wouldn't be a need to declare blockers, or you could if you really wanted to. The first line of 504 clearly states "removing that planeswalker from combat doesn't remove that creature from combat"
If you look at a creature such as Thrasta, Tempest's Roar, if it was the attacker in this scenerio and was attacking the planeswalker, if the defending player flickered the planeswalker, the Thrasta's 'Trample over Planeswalker' ability would see that planewalker was no longer there then just trample all of it's damage to the player.
The bottom line is the flicker would successfully save the plainswalker, but the defending player still needs to resolve the annihilator triggers.
August 23, 2022 3:18 p.m.
Also if you read the rules on any creature with annihilator they say:
"If a creature with annihilator is attacking a planeswalker, and the defending player chooses to sacrifice that planeswalker, the attacking creature continues to attack. It may be blocked. If it isn’t blocked, it simply won’t deal combat damage to anything."
The creature is still attacking even if the target isn't there. The annihilator triggers go on the stack as part of the declaration of attack, as they resolve you still have to sac to annihilator.
The only thing that could stop it is if the attacker also had a Sundial of the Infinite and decided to use it at that moment.
August 23, 2022 3:45 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
Yes, the first sentence of rule 506.4c says the creature isn't removed from combat, but the next sentence specifically says it's "attacking neither a player nor a planeswalker". Rule 508.5 (quoted in the first reply) says the "defending player" is "the player that creature is attacking, or the controller of the planeswalker that creature is attacking". Since there's no player being attacked or planeswalker being attacked, there's no defending player.
The example with Thrasta, Tempest's Roar doesn't work out that way because it's no longer attacking a planeswalker, so there's no "controller of the planeswalker it's attacking".
The quoted notes on Annihilator describe a case where the planeswalker being attacked is sacrificed as part of the Annihilator trigger resolving. This question is about a situation where the planeswalker goes away before the Annihilator trigger starts resolving.
August 24, 2022 8:44 a.m.
The point I was trying to make is that the moment that the attack is declared, the Annihilator triggers go on the stack, before any other player has an opportunity to respond. The triggers are on the stack and pointing at the defending player because at that point in time the defending player is clearly defined. Removing the target of the attack means the creature has nothing to damage, but the Annihilator triggers are still on the stack, they don't just fizzle away.
August 24, 2022 10:12 a.m.
The Annihilator triggers go on the stack before any other player can respond:
508.2b Any abilities that triggered on attackers being declared or that triggered during the process described in rules 508.1 are put onto the stack before the active player gets priority; the order in which they triggered doesn’t matter. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”)
The defending player is still the defending player:
508.5. If an ability of an attacking creature refers to a defending player, . . . . . . . . the defending player it’s referring to is the player that creature was attacking before it was removed from combat or the controller of the planeswalker that creature was attacking before it was removed from combat.
August 24, 2022 10:43 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
Yes, the Annihilator trigger is already on the stack. The point is that in this example there's no "defending player" at the time the Annihilator trigger resolves because the creature is not attacking any player or planeswalker. Here's the relevant rule again for reference, with emphasis added on the important part:
506.4c If a creature is attacking a planeswalker, removing that planeswalker from combat doesn't remove that creature from combat. It continues to be an attacking creature, although it is attacking neither a player nor a planeswalker. It may be blocked. If it is unblocked, it will deal no combat damage.
August 24, 2022 11:38 a.m.
506.4c is referring to combat damage. 506.4c also states the creature is still attacking 506.4c also says "It may be block" (who blocks the creature? the defending player)
I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.
Gidgetimer says... #1
508.5. If an ability of an attacking creature refers to a defending player, or a spell or ability refers to both an attacking creature and a defending player, then unless otherwise specified, the defending player it’s referring to is the player that creature is attacking, or the controller of the planeswalker that creature is attacking. If that creature is no longer attacking, the defending player it’s referring to is the player that creature was attacking before it was removed from combat or the controller of the planeswalker that creature was attacking before it was removed from combat.
August 13, 2022 8:38 p.m.