Imposing Sovereign vs Devotion gods!
Asked by Threk 11 years ago
If you have 4 devotion as you put down a god, wont it check and say that it is not a creature, therefore entering untapped? Then ofc turn into a creature afterwards?
Absinthman says... #2
Above answer is correct. There is actually a clue to the correct answer in the text printed on Purphoros, God of the Forge . If you look at the text carefully, you can see that it says "Whenever ANOTHER creature enters the battlefield..." If it worked the way you describe in your question, Purphoros would never be able to enter the battlefield as a creature which would make the word "another" redundant. The presence of that word suggests that gods enter the battlefield as creatures if your devotion is high enough.
December 11, 2013 9:32 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #3
The conclusion posed in the original question is the correct one. The God enters untapped.
To determine how to apply the replacement effect of Imposing Sovereign , you need to know what the incoming permanent would look like as it's on the battlefield, but this determination needs to be made before the permanent actually enters the battlefield. You take into account all continuous abilities that would affect the permanent's characteristics, including its own abilities.
So you currently have 4 devotion to Blue, you want to play Thassa, God of the Sea , and your opponent has an Imposing Sovereign . To determine what Thassa's characteristics would be you take into account her own ability, and the current state of the battlefield says that she wouldn't be a creature. The Sovereign's replacement effect doesn't get applied as Thassa enters the battlefield. Because you now have 5 devotion to Blue, Thassa is a creature.
December 11, 2013 10:05 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #4
So wait a minute, if you have less than 5 devotion to a given color BEFORE the god enters it doesn't enter as a creature? It only becomes a creature AFTER it enters the battlefield? I thought it was a static ability and therefore would check as she enters (and counts her own CMC in the devotion total).
If what I'm understanding is correct, they only ENTER the battlefield as a creature if you have 5+ devotion to that color BEFORE they enter...is that correct? Rhadamanthus
December 11, 2013 10:21 a.m.
I'm not sure that's correct. It should enter the battlefield tapped, regardless of devotion, then, if devotion is less than 5, become a noncreature as a state based action upon resolving.
December 11, 2013 10:36 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
Well, it does enter as a creature if it supplies the 5th devotion. There's no moment when it's on the battlefield and not yet a creature when it enters.
What's going on in this specific example is that there's an effect you need to apply before the God actually enters the battlefield. This means you need to figure out its characteristics as it would appear on the battlefield, but you can only use its own abilities and the current state of the battlefield to make the determination. Normally this process goes very smoothly and doesn't cause many strange results. The problem here is that besides the Theros Gods, I don't think there's any other card in the game whose simple presence/absence on the battlefield can affect what card types it has while on the battlefield.
Did that help?
December 11, 2013 10:48 a.m.
Absinthman says... #7
Thanks. It's completely clear to me now. Yet another surprising revelation.
December 11, 2013 10:52 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #8
Yes interesting outcomes. I will have to keep that in mind against my standard opponents
December 11, 2013 10:54 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
In case anyone else still isn't sure, here's the CR entry that covers how to do this. I misspoke earlier when I said you take into account all continuous abilities that would affect its characteristics. You only take into account the permanent's own abilities.
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanents characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.
December 11, 2013 11:05 a.m.
I think I've answered this particular question about 4 times. Rhadamanthus has the most correct answer, as he fully detailed the circumstances and cited the correct rules entry.
harrydemon117 says... #1
It will enter the battlefield as an enchantment only and not a creature as your devotion is not big enough. It will enter the battlefield untapped as it is not a creature when it enters the battlefield.
IF your devotion to said color (including the god itself) reaches 5+, THEN it is a creature when it enters the battlefield tapped due to Imposing Sovereign 's ability
December 11, 2013 9:22 a.m.