If I win, does my opponent lose?
Asked by TowerOfBad 13 years ago
Let's say I am in the multiplayer game.
I play and successfully pull off something like Chance Encounter .
ONE of my opponents has a card that says they can't lose the game. Do I still "win" against the others? Or no one?
TowerOfBad says... #2
That makes perfect sense, anyone want to concur?
I suppose this is another one of those situations where I cannot simply print up a rule and show it. -_-
July 14, 2011 11:52 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #3
It's not a replacement effect, because it doesn't use the word "instead" or any kind of phrasing similar to other replacement effects. 99% of the time this doesn't matter, but in a game like Magic there are bound to be possible situations where it's important that the ability can't be applied to an event as a replacement effect.
It's important to know exactly what your opponent has in this situation, because there isn't any card right now that simply says "you can't lose the game" and nothing else. There are cards with effects that say "you can't lose the game for having 0 or less life", which won't do anything to save your opponent in this situation, and there are cards with effects that say "you can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game", which would stop the effect of Chance Encounter completely.
July 14, 2011 11:59 a.m.
BrightGreenLine says... #4
Right now, I only see 3 cards that say any player "can't lose." Abyssal Persecutor , Platinum Angel , and card:Angel's Grace.
If your opponent has a Platinum Angel or Angel's Grace, then Chance Encounter won't do anything at all; its effect won't work because HIS opponents (IE: You) can't win the game.
If you're playing multiplayer and one opponent has Abyssal Persecutor, then when the trigger for Chance Encounter resolves that player will lose but nobody else will. This is relatively simple: Chance Encounter's effect only fires once, and according to the rules quoted by Epochalyptik when you win, all opponents lose. When the Chance Encounter fires, everyone but the opponent controlling Abyssal Persecutor is prevented from losing by its effect. Then that player leaves the game and takes his persecutor with him, causing the effect to end. At this point the event from Chance Encounter has already passed so nobody else will lose. During your next upkeep it will trigger again if nobody interferes in the meantime, and at that time you'll cause all of your opponents to lose again.
Another note: If two players have Abyssal Persecutors in play, nobody can win or lose until one of them leaves play. The same is true for one player holding a Persecutor and Platinum Angel (or Angel's Grace): Nobody can win or lose until one of those effects leaves play, either by killing the Angel or Persecutor, or by waiting for Grace's effect to end.
Going way back to the very first question: If you succeed in firing off a Chance Encounter , only the opponent controlling Abyssal Persecutor loses.
July 14, 2011 4:27 p.m.
mrjames141 says... #5
I love how most of the questions on tappedout have a low percent chance of occurring unless your either lucky/unlucky(depending) or try to make it happen, isn't that funny.
Well to the question now. Chance Encounter is pretty much as the name suggest, if there happens to be a Abyssal Persecutor or Platinum Angel on the field you simple won't win period by abilitys, damage, milling, and/or posion counters.
July 14, 2011 10:03 p.m.
BrightGreenLine says... #6
The reason alot of these questions seem contrived is because they are. Mundane, everyday situations people tend to learn quickly, and more people tend to know the answers so they get solved during the game. The more unique and difficult ones are usually the ones that get saved until the player goes home, so he can ask us here.
Besides, I'll take a question like this over "What happens when I deal damage to indestructible creatures?" any day.
July 14, 2011 10:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
Well, based on the ruling I posted in the first response, will Chance Encounter 's ability be completely nullified, or will all of the controller's opponents still lose the game besides the one which controls the can't-lose condition? Since the effect essentially says "you all lose" rather than "I win"...
On a side note, I agree with BrightGreenLine. I like seeing questions in the Q&A that actually let/make me learn new things about the rules.
July 14, 2011 10:16 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
I'm confident that because the rule you quoted uses "instead", it creates a replacement effect. However, because of the "your opponents can't win the game", there's no event to be replaced, so it can't apply. Chance Encounter should get totally cancelled out.
July 14, 2011 10:27 p.m.
BrightGreenLine says... #9
Yeah, it depends on which card is saying somebody can't win or lose. If one of your opponents is controlling an Abyssal Persecutor then when Chance Encounter resolves, all of your opponents that are able to lose will, which would be only the player with the Persecutor. If an opponent controlled a Platinum Angel or resolved an card:Angel's Grace then your Chance Encounter will do nothing, because it conflicts with the "Opponents can't win" condition already in play.
July 14, 2011 10:38 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
Somebody make a note of this event: Google is failing to find an answer.
So based on your argument, effects that cancel an event override everything else before replacement effects can take hold? The replacement effect would mean that the original never happened, but in the possibility that the original could not have happened at all due to some other circumstance, then I suppose there is nothing to be replaced.
(I can see compelling statements being made for either side).
July 14, 2011 10:40 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
Here's the rules justification for it:
614.7. If a replacement effect would replace an event, but that event never happens, the replacement effect simply doesn't do anything.
The following rule doesn't address this specific situation, but what it says specifically agrees with the interpretation that something prohibited by a "can't" doesn't happen and can't be replaced:
118.7. If an effect says that a player can't gain life, that player can't exchange life totals with a player who has a higher life total; in that case, the exchange won't happen. In addition, a cost that involves having that player gain life can't be paid, and a replacement effect that would replace a life gain event affecting that player won't do anything.
July 14, 2011 10:50 p.m.
I think the only really relevant rules are the one quoted in the first post and: 101.2. When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can't happen, the "can't" effect takes precedence.
No matter how you look at it, this situation comes down to an effect making players lose the game clashing with another effect stopping a player/s from losing. Anyone affected by the "can't lose the game" effect simply doesn't, a player that would win while a "can't win the game" effect is in place just doesn't. Effect overruled, the game moves on.
July 14, 2011 10:58 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #13
But that's why 614.7 is important. The only effect trying to cause people to "lose the game" is the one created by that rule's replacement effect. Because the Chance Encounter player is under a "can't win" effect, Chance Encounter's "win the game" effect doesn't happen, and so can't get replaced by 614.7, meaning nothing happens to anyone.
July 15, 2011 7:47 a.m.
I think I want to build a deck using Chance Encounter and all our juicy new proliferating cards....
July 15, 2011 2:11 p.m.
BrightGreenLine says... Accepted answer #15
Okay, so I've been stewing on this and pitching it to some higher-level judges, and I think we're at an answer here:
First, rule 104.3h is the single most important rule here. It's not a replacement effect, but it does explain how to handle "You win the game" cards in as much detail as needed.
104.3h In a multiplayer game, an effect that states that a player wins the game instead causes all of that players opponents to lose the game. (This may not cause the game to end if the limited range of influence option is being used; see rule 801.)
Okay, now that's out of the way we move on to the ways this could play out. There are 3 cards with winning-altering effects out there right now, Abyssal Persecutor , card:Angel's Grace, and Platinum Angel . For these examples, let's go with a 5-player game.
- Opponent B has Abyssal Persecutor : During your upkeep, Chance Encounter has 10 counters and triggers. When Chance Encounter resolves, per rule 104.3h, all of your opponents will lose immediately; however, Abyssal Persecutor prevents this from happening for everyone but Opponent B. In the end, Opponent B loses, everyone else stays in the game. Players in game: 4
- Opponent B has Platinum Angel : During your upkeep, Chance Encounter has 10 counters and triggers. When Chance Encounter resolves, per rule 104.3h, all of your opponents will lose immediately; however, Platinum Angel prevents this from happening to Opponent B. In the end, Opponent B stays in the game with you, and everyone else loses. Players in game: 2
- Multiple Opponents have Platinum Angel or Abyssal Persecutor , or one opponent has both. Chance Encounter has 10 counters and triggers during your upkeep. When Chance Encounter resolves, per rule 104.3h, all of your opponents will lose immediately; however, due to the stacking effects that say each player can't lose or win, nobody loses. In the end, nothing happens. Players in game: 5.
July 15, 2011 3:31 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #16
So 104.3h changes the nature of the effect itself rather than replacing the effect's event with a different event? Thinking about it that way, I'm willing to retract what I said earlier about Chance Encounter failing completely and agree with other peoples' explanations that are in agreement with yours.
July 15, 2011 3:50 p.m.
BrightGreenLine says... #17
And then after having a higher judge come along, he disagrees with me too.
"If something "can't" happen, you can't replace it. No one loses here."
104.3h is a replacement effect. This means that in the examples above, for #2, nothing happens. This comes from Eli Shiffrin, one of the three heads of Cranial Insertion, and I can't find what level Judge he is but I'm willing to take his word as gospel.
So again: If you have a Chance Encounter and an opponent has Platinum Angel , then your Chance Encounter will resolve to do nothing. Since an effect prevents you from winning the game (Platinum Angel), the replacement effect in the rules (104.3h) doesn't have anything to act on.
July 15, 2011 6:48 p.m.
BrightGreenLine says... #18
I gotta say, I hate when the accepted answer is wrong, and I doubly hate it when it's my answer that's wrong.
Epochalyptik says... #1
From the comprehensive rules:
104.3h In a multiplayer game, an effect that states that a player wins the game instead causes all of that players opponents to lose the game. (This may not cause the game to end if the limited range of influence option is being used; see rule 801.)
I am not 100% sure of this, but I would hazard a guess that this is kind of like a replacement effect. All your opponents that are able to lose do so, and the one who was not able to lose the game continues playing against you. Instead of losing, he or she will not lose because he or she is not able to. Therefore, you would both duke it out for the win.
July 14, 2011 11:20 a.m.