Does Elesh Norn's power kill creatures as soon as they enter the battlefield?
Asked by thorton 13 years ago
My friend played a card against me earlier today (IDK what it was .. something legacy.) It created two 1/1 tokens with deathtouch. I already had Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite on the battlefield.
He played the card (an instant) during my attack with Elesh, he claimed that even though Elesh Norn's power did kill the creatures they could still be assigned as blockers before dying. Is this true?
Also, since they had negative Power scores, wouldn't their deathtouch ability be rendered useless anyways?
Hey ability is a constant ability. They will enter the battlefield with -2/-2 less. So if they were 1/1's they would enter as -1/-1's. They would instantly die, therefore him using that card would be useless against you. His creatures could not be assigned as blockers. You win.
January 4, 2012 11:54 p.m.
I'm fairly certain the answer is no, they can't. I believe this has something to do with state-based actions (though I'm hardly a judge, and could be getting this wrong) but he's playing the instant at the end of your declare attackers step, meaning that before the phase switches to his declare blockers step state-based actions are checked (meaning his new dudes die from having negative or 0 toughness) and thus can't be declared as blockers.
I'm also fairly noted that state-based actions happen (such as creatures dying) when there are no spells on the stack, meaning this can happen in the middle of somebodies main phase as well.
Again, fairly certain this is correct though somebody else can back me up hopefully.
January 4, 2012 11:58 p.m.
KorApprentice says... #4
He is incorrect, all global effects are applied simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. From the MTG Comprehensive Rulebook:
611.3c Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. They dont wait until the permanent is on the battlefield and then change it. Because such effects apply as the permanent enters the battlefield, they are applied before determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger when it enters the battlefield.
State-based actions will place his tokens in the graveyard before he can declare them as blockers.
January 5, 2012 midnight
KorApprentice says... #5
By the way, was the card he used Gilt-Leaf Ambush ?
January 5, 2012 12:02 a.m.
thats what i thought. and yes it was gilt-leaf ambush.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
Your friend was incorrect.
When his spell resolved, he put two 1/1 creature tokens onto the battlefield. These tokens actually entered the battlefield as -1/-1s due to your Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite 's ability.
Following the resolution of the spell, the active player would receive priority. This means that first, state-based actions then check, and they cause the tokens to be put into your opponent's graveyard, then removed from the game. There is no point during this process at which your opponent could have declared them as blockers.
And you are also correct about the deathtouch. If a source would deal 0 or negative damage, then it does not deal damage at all. Therefore, the deathtouch would be useless.
January 4, 2012 11:53 p.m.