Does Day's Undoing trigger Sphinx's Tutelage

Asked by Justin_Bop 8 years ago

I was basically just wondering how Day's Undoing works with Sphinx's Tutelage. Is Sphinx's Tutelage triggered by the draw, or is the turn ended before it can actually trigger? Maybe this is unknown, as the official rules for the cards haven't been put up on the gatherer. If this actually works then this would be a mean mill deck idea.

Epochalyptik says... #1

Sphinx's Tutelage's ability triggers as soon as the cards are drawn, which is in the middle of Day's Undoing's resolution. The abilities will wait until Day's Undoing has fully resolved before they are put onto the stack. Therefore, the turn will have ended by the time those abilities would be put onto the stack and, because they're not on the battlefield or in the command zone and are not represented by cards, they will cease to exist.

713. Ending the Turn

713.1a Exile every object on the stack, including the object that's resolving. Remove all creatures and planeswalkers (including those that are phased out) from combat. All objects not on the battlefield or in the command zone that arent represented by cards will cease to exist the next time state-based actions are checked (see rule 704, "State-Based Effects").

June 23, 2015 8:57 p.m. Edited.

Rhadamanthus says... #2

The triggers that haven't been put onto the stack yet don't meet the definition of an "object". As-written, 713.1a won't wipe them. To me, this means the triggers will be put onto the stack right after marked damage goes away and "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end, but 713.2 is slightly unclear on this point. Expect clarification when the final Release Notes for Magic Origins are published.

109.1. An object is an ability on the stack, a card, a copy of a card, a token, a spell, a permanent, or an emblem.

713.2. No player gets priority during this process, so triggered abilities are not put onto the stack. If any triggered abilities have triggered between the spell or ability resolving and the cleanup step ending, those abilities are put onto the stack during the cleanup step, then the active player gets priority and players can cast spells and activate abilities. Then there will be another cleanup step before the turn finally ends. If no triggered abilities have triggered during this process, no player gets priority during the cleanup step. See rule 514, "Cleanup Step."

June 23, 2015 9:14 p.m.

Justin_Bop says... #3

Alright, that makes sense. Thank you Epochalyptik and Rhadamanthus. How priority works during the end step and the order everything goes always confuses me. Thanks for the quick answer, I now can work on my deck.

June 23, 2015 9:26 p.m.

pskinn01 says... #4

My interpretation is also that since the triggers have not been put on the stack, the triggers would be put on the stack due to 713.2 and 514.3.

My reasoning is this:
Triggers don't go on to the stack until the next time they are allowed (which is usually the next time state based effects are checked. 603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object thats not a card the next time a player would receive priority.

The spell in question states "Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card. Discard down to your maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end."

The triggers were not put on the stack, when spells and abilities were exiled. So 713.2 would come into play and let the triggers go on the stack during the clean up step, since it allows triggered abilities to be put on the stack during that time.

514 also states:

514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception: #

514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger at the beginning of the next cleanup step). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another cleanup step begins. #

Hopefully they make this clear in the release notes.

June 24, 2015 12:49 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #5

Answer reselected.

@pskinn01: Reminder text does not provide a complete analysis of the situation and should not be used as an absolute characterization of what happens during a given event.

My mistake was not in assuming that the triggered abilities were already on the stack (I explained that they weren't), it was in thinking that triggered abilities not on the stack still qualified as objects (as Rhad pointed out).

(Also, triggered abilities are placed onto the stack only after state-based actions are performed. SBAs are checked before a player gets priority while abilities are put onto the stack when a player gets priority.)

June 24, 2015 6:51 a.m. Edited.

Epochalyptik says... #6

Looks like the first answer was correct after all.

Source.

Source question:

Day's Undoing has been officially spoiled (on SCG's site). If I have Nekusar, the Mindrazer (or any other damage per card drawn effect) in play and play Day's Undoing, do my opponents still take damage for their seven drawn cards? Thanks.

Source answer:

Nope. Those triggered abilities will cease to exist and wont go on the stack. This is different from abilities that trigger during the end the turn process (which are fairly rare). Those abilities will go on the stack during cleanup.

June 24, 2015 7:26 p.m.

Justin_Bop says... #7

Epochalyptik Yeah I just saw this link. God damn these end of turn and stack shenanigans, they always ruin everything. Thank you though for clearing things up.

June 24, 2015 7:33 p.m.

Feyd_Ruin says... #8

Official ruling:Anything that triggers during Day's Undoing (such as Nekusar) will be put onto the stack during the cleanup step. Further explained:As it "ends the turn" it exiles spells, removes creatures from combat, SBEs are checked, and it skips directly to the cleanup step. Upon entering the cleanup step (we're outside of Day's Undoing now), players discard down to their maximum hand size, "until end of turn" effects end, damage is removed, etc.

Now, if any triggered ability triggered since Day's Undoing started resolving - such as Nesuka from the drawing, Mergrim from a player discarding (smaller hand size?), a creature died and something triggered from its death, etc etc - those abilities are put onto the stack during this cleanup step and each player receives priority as normal. After everything has resolved and players pass, there is another cleanup step.

July 25, 2015 12:12 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #9

I'd like a source for your "official ruling," as it is direct conflict with the one given by the MTG rules manager.

July 25, 2015 12:15 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #10

And with the Magic Origins release notes.

However, any abilities that trigger before the "end the turn" process begins, such as an ability that triggers whenever you draw a card, won't be put into the stack. Those abilities won't happen at a later time.

Source

July 25, 2015 12:23 p.m.

DragoKdb says... #11

If any triggered abilities do trigger during this process, theyre put onto the stack during the cleanup step. If this happens, players will have a chance to cast spells and activate abilities, then there will be another cleanup step before the turn ends.-- this is on the mtg site

January 14, 2016 3:51 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #12

You need to put that in the context of the bullet points before and after it in the source material (linked in Epochalyptik's post).

The bullet point before the one you quote describes the process of ending the turn, and your bullet point refers to abilities that trigger during that particular process. The quote in Epochalyptik's post is the following bullet point from what you quoted, and refers to abilities that have triggered from events that occurred before the "end the turn" process began. The draws from Day's Undoing will cause Sphinx's Tutelage to trigger, but those triggers are from before the "end the turn" process started. They won't be put onto the stack.

Also, please avoid adding comments to very old threads, as the way this site is set up makes it unlikely that many users will see them. If you have a new rules question or an issue with an old one, it's better to post a new topic.

January 14, 2016 4:49 p.m.

This discussion has been closed