Creature Abilities Still triggering after/when they die
Asked by brcap 9 years ago
I'm not referring to "when this creature dies" or entering the graveyard effects.
A good example is Harvester of Souls and 2 other creatures are on the field, and the board is wiped.
I know for sure that the ruling is that Harvester of Souls triggers and that the player will draw 2 cards, but for the life of me I can't understand how that makes any sense?
The ability is independent of it's source - in this case Harvester... no problem there. But how does a creature that has been destroyed register anything, triggers or otherwise? I'm aware that It has nothing to do with the order creatures die, as that all happens simultaneously. What would seem intuitive, is that the moment a creature dies, it ceases being a creature and can't register triggers. Just as a creature spell on the stack can't register triggers (of this kind, for our purposes anyway). I'm aware a creature leaving the field does not become a spell, the analogy is one of mechanic logic. If i'm casting Purphoros, God of the Forge and flash in a creature while he's on the stack - my understanding is that Purphorous passive ability won't trigger
I only ask because I feel like if i don't understand the way this works, I may misunderstand other rulings that have similar reasoning.
Cheers.
Epochalyptik says... #2
Also, your analogy isn't applicable. Spells and abilities resolve one at a time. If you respond to Purphoros, God of the Forge (as a spell) with another creature spell (assuming flash), then the second creature spell resolves first, and that creature will enter the battlefield before Purphoros, God of the Forge does. Purphoros, God of the Forge's ability won't yet exist to trigger.
However, if multiple creatures enter the battlefield simultaneously, then "Whenever a/another creature enters the battlefield" abilities amongst them will trigger for each other.
March 19, 2015 2:54 p.m.
Thanks for the rules answer, I can't say as the logic behind that is clear to me though. Could you explain how the "look back in time" ruling makes sense to you, or is this simply one of those "the rules just say so" moments?
Naturally, the Purphoros, God of the Forge example isn't on point, it's only there as a matter of general logic. Being the inherent sense in: things that aren't 'live' can't get triggered.
March 19, 2015 3:03 p.m.
did not mean to mark my comment as an accepted answer... not sure how to undo.
March 19, 2015 3:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
You should be able to just select another answer.
Anyway, Harvester of Souls and the other two creatures die simultaneously. The game looks back in time to see if Harvester of Souls's "dies" ability will trigger, and it sees two other creatures dying simultaneously with Harvester of Souls. Therefore, the ability triggers for them.
It's not a matter of Harvester of Souls dying and then somehow having its ability trigger from the graveyard for creatures that die after it. Everything dies simultaneously, so the game will see each creature changing zones.
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for in terms of an answer here.
March 19, 2015 3:18 p.m.
No, I think you've answered well. I think my struggle is that "looking back in time" seems in no way intuitive to me as a way the game functions, and wondered if it could expressed in a more intuitive way.
I don't expect all magic rules to be intuitive. Layers are perfect example; some only take precedent over others because the game says so in order to function, not because abilities are more or less intrinsically valuable than power/toughness.
Thanks for your help.
Unrelated; from the rule quoted: "when a player planeswalks away from a plane..." What!?
March 19, 2015 4:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
That's for Planechase, a casual format supported by special oversized "plane" cards.
Maybe this explanation will help:
In order to trigger, a triggered ability needs to exist during the trigger event. The reason the defined zone-change abilities check the state of objects as they existed in the first zone is to verify that they have abilities that will trigger during the event and to determine whether the ability will trigger for the event. When the game checks Harvester of Souls's ability, it also sees two other creatures making a zone change simultaneously with Harvester of Souls, so the ability triggers for each of those creatures.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
"Dies" abilities look at the creatures leaving the battlefield. Because the creatures die simultaneously, they're all observed together for the purposes of determining triggers.
603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to "look back in time" to determine if these abilities trigger.
March 19, 2015 2:52 p.m.