Commander Location
Asked by Shahkral_tol_Thel 10 years ago
So, I was playing with my friend in an EDH game, and I was able to shuffle his commander into his deck.
The commander, however, had a different sleeve, and when I questioned him about it, he said that you get to know where your commander is, no matter the zone. (Hand, Library, etc.)
Is this true?
Shahkral_tol_Thel says... #2
Thanks! I was going to call him out on it, but didn't know enough about the rules, etc.
June 7, 2014 10:52 p.m.
As far as I know, there isn't actually a definitive answer on this. I believe that at one point someone on the EDH Rules Committee said that this was the case, but only once and there's been no other strong confirmation one way or the other (and since the rules are made by a committee, one person's opinion may not accurately reflect the majority).
Personally, I feel the location should not be known. I believe that most people use the same sleeve for their general as for the rest of their deck. They certainly shouldn't have any reason to use a different sleeve. The biggest problem with using a different sleeve for a tucked general is not only that it gives additional information (which is potentially intentional), but it also makes it quite difficult to fairly shuffle the deck. Even if the shuffler isn't looking at the deck as they do so, the other sleeve will often have a different feel from the others, making fairness difficult even if someone is trying not to cheat (even multiple sleeves from the same company/brand will feel different. For example, different packs of Dragon Shields are just incidentally cut at slightly different heights).
I'd say, if there's a playgroup you play with consistently, try to establish a rule for it with the majority of them, and just let new players know about it at the start of the game. EDH is very meta-dependant, even when it comes to banlists, so I don't see why this should be any different. Just determine something that can be agreed on, and stick with that.
June 7, 2014 10:54 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Most people consider the DCI rules to be part of magic's rules and from the DCI rule book:
Players are responsible for ensuring that their cards and/or card sleeves are not marked during the course of the tournament. A card or sleeve is considered marked if it bears something that makes it possible to identify the card without seeing its face, including scratches, discoloration, and bends.
If a players cards are sleeved, the cards must be examined while in the sleeves to determine if they are marked. Players should use care when sleeving their decks and should randomize their decks prior to sleeving them to reduce the possibility of cards becoming marked with a pattern. Players should also keep in mind that cards or sleeves may become worn and potentially marked through play during the course of a tournament.
June 7, 2014 11:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #5
@Gidgetimer: That's incorrect because Commander is a special case.
Remember that the DCI only governs sanctioned events. Commander is not a sanctioned format. Its final rulings come from the RC, not from Wizards. In any event that there is a conflict between the RC and the CR, the RC takes precedence.
According to one of the RC members:
Long story short, the location of a General is known to all players at any time no matter which zone it's in, or whether it's face down/face up. That includes being in the library or face-down from something like Tuck+Grimoire Thief... (Source.)
"Commander-ness" is an unalterable, irremovable quality of the physical object that represents a commander. As such, the commander is identifiable in every zone if playing strictly according to RC rulings.
The caveat is that knowledge of the commander's location within a library cannot affect the shuffling process. The common solution is to shuffle and cut the deck without any players looking at it (assuming the sleeves are of the same size).
However, it is the prerogative of the playgroup to overturn or otherwise house rule a different verdict.
June 8, 2014 12:28 a.m.
@Epochalyptik: so what you're saying is, the commander should actually be sleeved differently, and thus it should be visible to all players where in the library it is?
June 8, 2014 12:33 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
@kmcree: It's ultimately at the discretion of the playgroup. Playing strictly by the RC's standards, the commander's exact location should always be identifiable.
Gidgetimer says... #1
No, if the commander is put into a zone with hidden information the information must be completely hidden. If the commander is in a library no-one may know which card is the commander. if it is in someone's hand the opponents should not be able to know which card it is.
June 7, 2014 10:51 p.m.