Cauldron of Souls and Karn, Silver Golem
Asked by bushido_man96 7 years ago
I have a question in regards to interactions with Cauldron of Souls and Karn, Silver Golem's ability to turn non-creature artifacts into creatures.
If I use Karn's ability to make several artifacts into artifact creatures, then activate the Cauldron's ability to give them persist, then sacrifice them for something, will those artifact cards return to the battlefield, even thought they aren't creatures anymore? Will they still have a -1/-1 counter on them? I don't think they would, because they would not be creatures anymore, but still wonder if the Cauldron's ability will work to bring them back.
I read through the rulings on Gatherer, but I wan't quite clear on this.
Thanks for the help.
bushido_man96 says... #2
Ok, thanks a bunch. Now, just a clarification. Once the artifact returns to the battlefield, its just an artifact. So, will the -1/-1 counter fall off the artifact, since it isn't a creature?
July 20, 2017 5:55 a.m.
Counters aren't removed just because they don't do anything - noncreature artifacts will still have that counter on them, and if they ever become creatures again, it will modify their power/toughness.
July 20, 2017 6:01 a.m.
bushido_man96 says... #4
Ok, that should work for what I want to do. Thank you guys for all the help!
acbooster says... Accepted answer #1
Your artifacts would return with a -1/-1 counter on them. Here's the relevant rule:
608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target thats no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word target, are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. Illegal targets, if any, wont be affected by parts of a resolving spells effect for which theyre illegal. Other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them. If the spell or ability creates any continuous effects that affect game rules (see rule 613.10), those effects dont apply to illegal targets. If part of the effect requires information about an illegal target, it fails to determine any such information. Any part of the effect that requires that information wont happen.
It's a bit wordy, but the part we want to focus on here is the "last known information" concept. Cauldron of Souls gives the creatures persist, meaning that the creature is the source of the ability. Now, the card is in the graveyard and not the battlefield, so the game has to look at it as it was the moment before it left. If you animated your Razor Boomerang with Karn, Silver Golem, gave it Persist with Cauldron of Souls, and let it die, the game would see the Boomerang as an Artifact Creature, even though it's just an Artifact now. The ability would resolve normally and the Boomerang would return to the field with a -1/-1 counter on it, which doesn't make a difference unless you go to animate it again
CORRECTION: That's not quite the right rule to cite, but this does have to do with Last Known Information. The MTG Wiki article on Persist actually explains it rather concisely, though it doesn't provide the reasoning on the page: "Likewise, if a noncreature permanent becomes a creature, gains persist, and is put into a graveyard, the persist ability will still trigger even though that permanent won't be a creature when it returns to the battlefield."
July 19, 2017 11:52 p.m. Edited.