Can a creature become monstrous without activating monstrosity?
Asked by IamTitan 11 years ago
Instead of paying the extra cost to activate monstrosity could I instead put +1/+1 counters on a creature to make it monstrous? For example Shipbreaker Kraken has Monstrosity 4 with an 8 mana cost. would putting 4 +1/+1 counters on it in a different (possibly cheaper) way cause it to become monstrous?
Epochalyptik says... #2
Monstrous status has nothing to do with whether there are counters on the permanent or not. Currently, all monstrous effects add counters in addition to conferring the monstrous status, but the relationship is not causal.
September 22, 2013 7:23 p.m.
It almost seems like Monstrosity should have a token or something to indicate the change, kind of like the flip cards of Innistrad. Otherwise, having 4 +1/+1 counters from another source on the Shipbreaker Kraken mentioned above could indicate the activation without it actually occurring. In fact, it has been suggested by other players that once a creature has the X (X indicating the Monstrosity number) number of +1/+1 counters, it can no longer activate the Monstrosity.
September 26, 2013 1:06 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
@Warmonger: You can activate the monstrosity ability again, but it won't do anything if the creature is already monstrous.
September 26, 2013 1:15 a.m.
From the official rules at Wizards.
New Keyword Action: Monstrosity
Monsters of myth prowl the landscape of Theros, striking fear into the stoutest of hearts. Monstrosity is a new keyword action that puts +1/+1 counters on a creature and may cause other abilities to trigger for further bonuses.
Keepsake Gorgon3BBCreature Gorgon2/5Deathtouch5BB: Monstrosity 1. (If this creature isnt monstrous, put a +1/+1 counter on it and it becomes monstrous.)When Keepsake Gorgon becomes monstrous, destroy target non-Gorgon creature an opponent controls.
The official rules for monstrosity are as follows:
701.28. Monstrosity
701.28a Monstrosity N means If this permanent isnt monstrous, put N +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous. Monstrous is a condition of that permanent that can be referred to by other abilities.
701.28b If a permanents ability instructs a player to monstrosity X, other abilities of that permanent may also refer to X. The value of X in those abilities is equal to the value of X as that permanent became monstrous.
Once a creature becomes monstrous, it cant become monstrous again. If the creature is already monstrous when the monstrosity ability resolves, nothing happens.
Monstrous isnt an ability that a creature has. Its just something true about that creature. If the creature stops being a creature or loses its abilities, it will continue to be monstrous.
An ability that triggers when a creature becomes monstrous wont trigger if that creature isnt on the battlefield when its monstrosity ability resolves.
This still doesn't address the loss of activation opportunity due to the presence of +1/+1 tokens.
September 26, 2013 1:46 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
@Warmonger: That's because the opportunity isn't lost. You can always activate a monstrosity ability, assuming you can pay for it and have priority. The counters are completely irrelevant in that regard. However, if the creature is already monstrous when the monstrosity ability resolves, the ability will do nothing.
Also, monstrous uses +1/+1 counters, not +1/+1 tokens. The latter do not exist.
September 26, 2013 1:52 a.m.
Please excuse my terminology faux pas. I knew that, but at 1:46 AM, my mind doesn't always process properly. Does anyone have a suggestion for a Monstrosity indicator (token, counter, or otherwise)?
September 26, 2013 2:07 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
The counters are meant to be a sufficient indicator. Flavor-wise, +1/+1 counters work with the idea of something becoming monstrous. Visually, they provide an indicator. Usually, +1/+1 counters on monstrous creatures will have been put there by the monstrosity abilities of those creatures. In the event that +1/+1 counters are distributed by another effect, players shouldn't be too pressed to remember which effect put those counters there.
September 26, 2013 2:10 a.m.
I mean, just remember that it's monstrous, unless both sides are running several monstrous creatures it shouldn't be too hard for one of you to remember "That Fleecemane Lion is monstrous"
September 26, 2013 8:02 a.m.
Wintersylph says... #10
Not to offend any of you "RULES" smiths, but your analysis is simply flawed, and your respect for the game is misguided. We never, ever, should just simply "remember" what effect was generated or where the source came from.
In a tournament your opponent can raise his hand and challenge your position, who's to say where your counters came from? If there are counters on a creature that satisfies Monstrosity then it should in-fact be monstrous for the following reasons and logic: Reading the rules from Wizards it is clear that Monstrous is "NOT" an ability, therefore "Costs" are irrelevant. Reading the card in question (any of the cards with Monstrosity) it is also clear that the condition of Monstrosity is: Monstrosity x. (If this creature isnt monstrous, put x +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous.)
The key words here are "PUT" and "Becomes", when you "Put" x counters on the creature it "Becomes", there is no language about the origin of costs in that definition, and for you rules hounds again, let me quote to you your own quotes "take a look at rule 701.28a, Monstrosity N means If this permanent isnt monstrous, put N +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous. Monstrous is a condition of that permanent that can be referred to by other abilities.
So when I pay costs for counters, whether it's from a another spell or an ability "activation" cost, then I simply get the counters, even in the case of monstrosity, you are just paying an activation cost, not satisfying a condition. The condition is represented by the rule and by the card itself, in this case, the act of "PUTTING" leads to the condition of Monstrosity, and therefore the creature "BECOMES". MY resolution: If you put counters on a Monstrosity creature from "ANY" source to satisfy "x" he "becomes" monstrous.
If Wizards of the Coast didn't want this interpretation, they should be wiser about the way they use the English Language. And you rule hounds, for those of you who are certified, "shame on you".
March 29, 2015 11:59 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
@Wintersylph: This question was resolved a year and a half ago with the proper analysis.
The monstrous status is conferred ONLY by the resolution of the monstrosity ability if the permanent isn't already monstrous. It's as simple as that. Monstrosity isn't a triggered ability that triggers when a permanent has counters placed on it. Regular counter-placing effects don't reference the monstrous status.
March 29, 2015 12:59 p.m.
Wintersylph says... #13
Obviously you both fail to understand I'm not asking how the effect works, what my blog was about is that I disagree with the logic of why it works. You answer me with words like "Ability" yet Wizards has clearly stated that Monstrosity is not an ability, so it's hard to understand rational that parrots words that do not have any functionality in the situation I described. You both think it's an ability, and therefore it must have an activation cost, yet Wizards has already defined that it's not an ability. There are other situations in the game where costs are not paid as stated due to an interaction from another effect, and I say this is a similar case. However, if you actually read my entry you both will see that I stated in my conclusion that if Wizards had wanted Monstrosity to work they way it has been determined, then they should choose their words more wisely. That's an opinion, and someone can't be "wrong" for an opinion, had I quoted a fact or a rule, then I might in fact be wrong if I misstate the language, which I did not do. Perhaps you can study Kepler, or Galileo, and tell me about how wrong they were simply because the masses were convinced to believe a certain way. Prove to me the proper analysis was made, not simply parroting that I'm wrong. My argument has merit, even if it has been deemed not to be the process that will be followed.
March 30, 2015 11:02 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
You're missing one of the most basic distinctions.
Monstrous is a status.
Monstrosity is an ability.
See my above post, where I clarified (intentionally and carefully, I might add) that the monstrous status is conferred only by the monstrosity ability.
So you are, indeed, simply wrong.
March 31, 2015 12:15 a.m.
And to complement, Monstrosity - an ability - always has an activation cost. It's written on every single card that has Monstrosity. See Stormbreath Dragon - 
: Monstrosity 3, roughly meaning 'Pay 5RR: Put three +1/+1 counters on this creature. It becomes monstrous.'
March 31, 2015 8:27 p.m.
nighthawk101 says... #16
If you want to get technical, Monstrosity is an keyword action like Scry, but it is currently only referenced in activated abilities.
March 31, 2015 8:29 p.m.
That's interesting, I never thought about it that way. It's like they just named a common activated ability. So I guess an instant could read "Monstrosity X target creature" and it would work exactly like you think it would - the creature gets X +1/+1 counters and becomes monstrous, even if it's not a creature that has the Monstrosity keyword action
March 31, 2015 8:40 p.m.
Not to beat a dead horse here, but I just realized that I have been unintentionally misusing/abusing monstrosity because of the ambiguity of the wording.. It is what it is, but I think the phrasing should have been something more like, "Monstrosity X. (If this creature is not already monstrous, it becomes monstrous and it gets X +1/+1 counters." That way the counters read as a bonus to making the creature monstrous as opposed to "Place X +1/+1 counters and it becomes.." which reads like the counters are causal. There's lots of flawed verbiage on cards this is just another instance
July 29, 2015 2:24 p.m. Edited.
It's only ambiguous if you don't understand how abilities work in Magic. Pay the cost, get the effect as it reads on the card. Don't pay the cost, don't get any part of it. Nothing on a monstrous card says "if you put counters on this creature, it becomes monstrous"; instead, it's essentially "if you pay the cost and this creature isn't monstrous, it gets counters and becomes monstrous". Two ifs, two thens, one single ability.
Goody says... Accepted answer #1
No. A creature only becomes monstrous if you activate its Monstrosity ability, and only if it's not already monstrous. Technically they could print a creature with Monstrosity 0, as in, it becomes monstrous and adds 0 counters.
September 22, 2013 7:13 p.m.