Useful Dispersing Orb?
General forum
Posted on Nov. 13, 2013, 3:52 p.m. by Baja-Derpingham
Question - If I were to use an enchantment such as Betrayal synergetically with Rootwater Matriarch to gain control of a creature, and then use the Dispersing Orb to sacrifice the stolen creature could I return Betrayal back to my hand as the target of the spell?
Easier question: Is the sacrifice the same as the target permanent or are they treated as two different cards?
Baja-Derpingham says... #3
Okay well that kills a bunch of combos in a deck lol.What about Dispersing Orb + Sower of Temptation ? Does the sac resolve before the bounce?
November 13, 2013 4:16 p.m.
In addition to the above, Betrayal must enchant a creature an opponent controls. Once you gain control of it, Betrayal will fall off for enchanting an illegal object, and then your opponent will regain control of it, as it is no longer enchanted.
I'm not exactly sure what the second question is asking, but the target of Dispersing Orb's ability does not have to be the sacrificed permanent, and if it is, the ability will be countered on resolution for having an illegal target, as the sacrificed permanent will be in the graveyard and no longer a permanent.
@thataddkid Two things: sacrificing a creature is not a state-based action, and an Aura only has targets when it is a spell.
November 13, 2013 4:16 p.m.
There is a loophole even before what thataddkid mentioned. Betrayal can only enchant a creature an opponent controls as the restriction of the card says. It's even mentionned in the extra ruling:
10/4/2004: If it ever enchants a creature that isn't controlled by an opponent of Betrayal 's controller, then it's put into the graveyard as a State-Based Action.
And as thataddkid mentioned, sacrificing a permanent is part of the cost and as State Based Action are checked, targeting the Betrayal won't be possible.
November 13, 2013 4:22 p.m.
thataddkid says... #6
raithe000, I said the creature was sent to the graveyard as a state-based action. You sacrifice the creature to have the effect even go on the stack- as soon as it goes on the stack, the sacrificed creature goes to the graveyard.
November 13, 2013 8:02 p.m.
@thataddkid that is not how sacrifice works, nor how activating an ability works. Sacrificing a permanent does not resolve as a state-based action. In this particular case, it is a cost, and the sacrificed card will be in the graveyard before SBAs are checked. Additionally, when you activate an ability, it goes on the stack before anything else happens. Priority is not passed until targets are chosen, costs are paid, etc. but it is still on the stack.
November 13, 2013 8:05 p.m.
thataddkid says... #8
raithe000 -Right, it is a cost, but when the cost is paid the SBA's occur before any player has priority. As soon as the creature is sacrificed and all other costs are paid, SBA checking occurs. All SBA's happen right now, and since the creature was sacrificed to pay the cost, it is now checked as a state-based action and goes to the graveyard before a player receives priority.
Additionally, the effect goes onto the stack after costs are paid immediately, yes, but SBAs are checked before a player receives priority.
November 13, 2013 8:09 p.m.
@thataddkid Sacrificing is not a State Based Action and is not checked as an SBA. It is an action taken, like exiling a permanent. It has no interaction with priority.
A spell or ability goes on the stack before its costs are paid, not after. It cannot be responded to until after its costs are paid, but it is put on the stack beforehand.
November 13, 2013 8:17 p.m.
thataddkid says... #10
raithe000, as I said at the very beginning of my last post-
Right, it is a cost, but when the cost is paid the SBA's occur before any player has priority.
I never stated anywhere that sacrificing was a state-based action. What I said was that when a creature is sacrificed to pay costs, it is sent to the graveyard as a state-based action. This was to answer OP's question, as this shows that before the effect resolves, the creature is already in the graveyard.
Additionally, costs are paid to even put a spell on the stack.
November 13, 2013 8:28 p.m.
@thataddkidI hate to do this, but I'm going to cite giant sets of rules.
Here is the list of State-based actions, none of which mention Sacrificing, which is what I was trying to explain. If you sacrifice a permanent, it goes to the graveyard immediately, not when SBAs check.
704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:
704.5a If a player has 0 or less life, he or she loses the game.
704.5b If a player attempted to draw a card from a library with no cards in it since the last time state-based actions were checked, he or she loses the game.
704.5c If a player has ten or more poison counters, he or she loses the game. Ignore this rule in Two-Headed Giant games; see rule 704.5u instead.
704.5d If a token is phased out, or is in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
704.5e If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist. If a copy of a card is in any zone other than the stack or the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, its put into its owners graveyard. Regeneration cant replace this event.
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and its been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
704.5i If a planeswalker has loyalty 0, its put into its owners graveyard. 704.5j If a player controls two or more planeswalkers that share a planeswalker type, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners graveyards. This is called the planeswalker uniqueness rule.
704.5k If a player controls two or more legendary permanents with the same name, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners graveyards. This is called the legend rule.
704.5m If two or more permanents have the supertype world, all except the one that has had the world supertype for the shortest amount of time are put into their owners graveyards. In the event of a tie for the shortest amount of time, all are put into their owners graveyards. This is called the world rule.
704.5n If an Aura is attached to an illegal object or player, or is not attached to an object or player, that Aura is put into its owners graveyard.
704.5p If an Equipment or Fortification is attached to an illegal permanent, it becomes unattached from that permanent. It remains on the battlefield.
704.5q If a creature is attached to an object or player, it becomes unattached and remains on the battlefield. Similarly, if a permanent thats neither an Aura, an Equipment, nor a Fortification is attached to an object or player, it becomes unattached and remains on the battlefield.
704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
704.5s If a permanent with an ability that says it cant have more than N counters of a certain kind on it has more than N counters of that kind on it, all but N of those counters are removed from it.
704.5t In a Two-Headed Giant game, if a team has 0 or less life, that team loses the game. See rule 810, Two-Headed Giant Variant.
704.5u In a Two-Headed Giant game, if a team has fifteen or more poison counters, that team loses the game. See rule 810, Two-Headed Giant Variant.
704.5v In a Commander game, a player thats been dealt 21 or more combat damage by the same commander over the course of the game loses the game. See rule 903, Commander.
704.5w In an Archenemy game, if a non-ongoing scheme card is face up in the command zone, and it isnt the source of a triggered ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that scheme card is turned face down and put on the bottom of its owners scheme deck. See rule 904, Archenemy.
704.5x In a Planechase game, if a phenomenon card is face up in the command zone, and it isnt the source of a triggered ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, the planar controller planeswalks. See rule 901, Planechase.
Here are the rules for casting spells (abilities follow the same steps). Notice that the card goes on the stack in 601.2a, but costs are not paid until 601.2g.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, Handling Illegal Actions). Announcements and payments cant be altered after theyve been made.
601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until its countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.46), he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as its being cast such as buyback or kicker costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player cant apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as its being cast (such as an X in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the players options when making these choices.
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target cant be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word target on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word target in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word target (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player cant be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; theyll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.) Example: If a spell says Tap two target creatures, then the same creature cant be chosen twice; the spell requires two different legal targets. A spell that says Destroy target artifact and target land, however, can target the same artifact land twice because it uses the word target in multiple places.
601.2d If the spell requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, the player announces the division. Each of these targets must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.
601.2e The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be 0. It cant be reduced to less than 0. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes locked in. If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
601.2f If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, Mana Abilities). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
601.2g The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs cant be paid. Example: You cast Altars Reap, which costs 1B and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost 1 less to cast. Because a spells total cost is locked in before payments are actually made, you pay B, not 1B, even though youre sacrificing the Familiar.
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2ag are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spells controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
Baja-Derpingham, I deeply apologize for derailing this thread.
November 13, 2013 8:35 p.m.
thataddkid says... #12
Ohh, I see what you're saying now. Either way, the way I saw it still makes sense- even if it is not sent to graveyard as a SBA, it is still sent to the graveyard before priority is received. Sorry about that, lol.
Baja-Derpingham, I as well apologize for the derailing.
November 13, 2013 8:43 p.m.
Baja-Derpingham says... #13
Haha, its merely a very, very elaborate response to a question. I'll just take the simplified version, the expanded one makes my head hurt. No worries. Now back to my previous question, what about using Dispersing Orb + Sower of Temptation ? Does the sac resolve before the bounce? I'm trying to create a bounce creature steal deck and steal opponent creatures and put them into a Fodder Cannon .
(And yes I am using bounce cards to put Sower back into my hand lol.)
November 14, 2013 12:49 p.m.
The sac is part of the cost, so it is paid when you put the ability on the stack, long before the bounce effect resolves.
thataddkid says... #2
Well what you're trying to do is sacrifice an enchanted creature to return the aura on it. Sacrificing the creature is part of paying the cost to activate Dispersing Orb 's ability, and since the sac'd creature is sent to the graveyard as a state-based action, the aura(s) attached to it go to the graveyard as a SBA as well without a target.
November 13, 2013 4:07 p.m.