How do you shuffle your deck?
General forum
Posted on July 22, 2015, 4:03 p.m. by Wabbbit
Kind of a weird question, but I feel like there could be some interesting stories/answers. Is there a best way to shuffle a deck? A certain way that you are superstitious about? Share your stories!
Certain pile shuffling techniques (just sorting you cards into 3 or 5 piles etc) is mathematically the closest approximation to true randomness out of any of the methods but is of course deterministic and not random at all - you could memorise the order of the cards as you put them in piles to produce perfect draws.
Therefore the riffle shuffle is the best true shuffle (split deck into two halves and sort of fan them into each other). I believe 6 or 7 riffles produces a satisfactory level of shuffling from a mathematical perspective.
I like to actually do a single riffle to produce a random distribution and then do a pile shuffle. I am bad at riffles, you see.
July 22, 2015 4:10 p.m.
weisemanjohn says... #4
well, I know how I don't shuffle my deck. I do not shuffle in a manner that could cause my cards to become rotated in such a manner that if I were to draw a card, it could result in it being "upside down". This includes methods such as 52 (or, 60+ in this case) card pick up.
side note is "cutting a deck". I do not appreciate it when someone decides to shuffle my deck as their cut, as it seems disrespectful (you do not trust me shuffling, so why should I in the first place if you will do it for me) and you may use a method that is destructive to either the cards or the sleeves that contain them (some of us like our expensive sleeves with art on them.)
generally I may pile shuffle in various numbers of piles that evenly divide the deck, and also shuffle where the sides of the cards are pressed together and they randomly layer between each other.
July 22, 2015 4:13 p.m.
I'm bad at riffles as well :(. I prefer to pile shuffle, seems like the easiest and best way to me. Although, I think I can manage one riffle without making a fool of myself, then go into a pile shuffle like you do.
July 22, 2015 4:14 p.m.
i shuffle all kinds of ways but i refuse to shuffle my decks like a normal deck of cards to prevent bending and folding.
July 22, 2015 4:14 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #7
My EDH deck is double sleeved and my hands are small (cuz I'm a girl) so I split it in half and then riffle the halves. Then take half of each half and shuffle those together, and lastly take both halves of the deck and mash them together a time or two.
I have no idea how well it randomizes (probably terribly) but any other way results in me dropping cards everywhere.
July 22, 2015 4:15 p.m.
Yeah, I always thought that shuffling an opponents deck when they give it to you to cut was a disrespectful thing to do. Totally agree.
July 22, 2015 4:16 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #9
I tend to compulsively shuffle while I'm holding a deck, so I usually just riffle for a minute or two before the match/game starts and that's good enough when playing 60 card.
July 22, 2015 4:17 p.m.
weisemanjohn says... #10
what was amusing was watching my friend attempt to shuffle a EDH deck that was sleeved with top loaders. he had to segment it quite a few times to have manageable stacks.
July 22, 2015 4:17 p.m.
Coinman1863 says... #11
I shuffle backwards from most of you, I go pile then riffle and I seem to get very good results. It almost never draws the exact same hand twice.
July 22, 2015 4:19 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #12
If you don't like people shuffling your deck, best of luck at any tournament ever.
-
I personally am super good at mash shuffling; The typical sleeved card shuffle that includes cutting the deck, putting one half on top of the other horizontally, then fanning them together. I literally sit at my desk and shuffle whenever i'm bored on my computer and have a deck within reach. I'll do anywhere between 10 and 30 mashes before presenting, depending how long it takes the opponent to get ready. Never pile shuffling ever because it is nothing more than a waste of time as it doesn't provide any more randomization than mashing a few times.
July 22, 2015 4:19 p.m.
I like pile shuffling my deck once and then riffle/mash shuffling them 6-7 times to re-randomize the deck. Sure that could easily give me mana clumps, but my deck needs to be random in order to play not semi-random.
blah blah It's not true random, you can never truly randomize your deck blah blah
weisemanjohn - Your opponent shouldn't trust you. If you notice at GPs and Pro Tours that they always shuffle their opponent's deck unless there is a time concern. You're still entitled to be upset, but they have as much a right to shuffle your deck as you do.
July 22, 2015 4:20 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #14
I hate pile shuffling, mostly because it takes for-fucking-ever with EDH decks.
July 22, 2015 4:24 p.m.
TritoneTed says... #15
Actually, when you present your deck to your opponent, it's so they can shuffle it. At lower REL/kitchen table play, it's a common practice to cut instead of shuffling, but at higher-level events, you are actually required to shuffle rather than simply cut.
2.3. Pregame Procedures
The following steps must be performed in a timely manner before each game begins:
[...]
3. Players present their decks to their opponents for additional shuffling. The sideboard (if any) is also presented at this time.
(source: https://rules.wizards.com/rulebook.aspx?game=Magic&category=Tournament+Policy#4520)
July 22, 2015 4:26 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #16
I feel like that's a misinterpretation of that rule.
Yes, you have to present your deck as in give the opportunity to your opponent to shuffle, but they do not have to take action when you do. It's up to them. Presentation is used by judges for deck registration errors, as in example the procedure for fixing a "I forgot to de-sideboard" is different whether the deck was presented or not. Presentation is basically the RL way of saying that "I am locked in with this deck for this game".
July 22, 2015 4:30 p.m.
ThatJunkMage - There is some maths article somewhere saying that it does (pile shuffling approximating true randomness very well). I believe it also said that a single mash wasn't great - you had to do it many, many times. Therefore on the balance of effort one pile is probably better than one mash.
July 22, 2015 4:35 p.m.
ChiefBell - I read a similar thing that it takes around 7 shuffles to fully randomize a deck of 52 playing cards. Also, relevant video on shuffling and no it's not Magic related.
July 22, 2015 4:38 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #19
I believe that it has potential to be the same in terms of randomness without time being a factor, but I am speaking on behalf of the tournament player who doesn't have an extra 49 minutes every round to watch someone pile shuffle thrice or however many times it takes. While one mash shuffle is significantly less effective at achieving randomness, it is also done in a fraction of a fraction of the time it takes to complete one pile shuffle, and getting the required 7 or so in only takes about 15 seconds. Unless of course the user is unpracticed and / or not dextrous enough to complete the task, in which case piling is acceptable, though still unfavored.
July 22, 2015 4:40 p.m.
ThatJunkMage It's made pretty clear at the end of 3.9 when it's a requirement to shuffle.
- At Competitive and Professional REL tournaments, players are required to shuffle their opponents decks aftertheir owners have shuffled them. The Head Judge can require this at Regular REL tournaments as well.
July 22, 2015 4:40 p.m.
ThatJunkMage - I am saying that even 7 mashes, depending on your skill of course, could range hugely from a fantastic shuffle to a really poor one. It could take a huge number of mashes to make them good. But then we get into the land of conjecture because I do not know how well you mash, so it becomes pointless.
July 22, 2015 4:41 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #22
here is an EVEN more interesting read.
http://fivewithflores.com/2009/05/how-to-cheat/
here, he shows you exactly how to randomize your deck.
July 22, 2015 4:43 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #23
I always shuffle my opponent's deck in Competitive REL, it's what you're actually supposed to do. Don't really care at FNM.
Also this. But anything more than one cut is actually considered a shuffle.
July 22, 2015 4:44 p.m.
I typically mash my cards, fanning them through. I'm good enough at it that I don't damage sleeves to any massive extent. I've practiced in down time before just to get good at it.
I also shuffle my opponents deck entirely when presented to "Cut." I spend enough time at competitive REL tournaments that I do it almost compulsively. The lack of trust shouldn't be an issue. Your opponent is there to make you lose. I've had people at FNM get mad at me for shuffling their deck, but they're quickly shut up by the people around them when told it's required in competitive REL. If my opponent asks me to shuffle a way other than mashing, that is an entirely reasonable concern, and I will heed it. I want to avoid damaging their cards as much as possible.
July 22, 2015 4:50 p.m.
I just throw all my cards in a dull woodchipper, and then turn it on briefly if I need a card shot out for a draw
July 22, 2015 5:04 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #26
TehCoopeh I literally just twitched.
Don't ever say that again lmao
July 22, 2015 5:05 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #27
Pile shuffling is re-ordering, not randomization. With that said perfect riffles and perfect mashes are also re-ordering, not randomizing. The key to randomizing with mashes and riffles is the imperfection. You want 1-3 card packets (mostly 1 with the occasional 2 and rare 3) interlaced from each half and you want to make sure that you do not maintain the top or bottom card.
I will pile once after boarding. The point is to count so to ensure that there are the right number of cards. Other than that I strictly mash shuffle 15-20 times. I don't ever trust anyone that doesn't end on 7+ riffles or mashes. Most of the time at regular REL I will cut since I know some people don't like their deck shuffled by other people, but in that case I do the requisite 7+ real shuffles for them.
July 22, 2015 5:32 p.m.
How could you possibly keep track of a riffle in the same way you keep track of a pile shuffle?
Also if you do riffle such that one pile ends up every 1-3 card packets that IS essentially a pile shuffle and really the worst way to do it. You want your two piles to randomly combine together, NOT to combine together in a predictable fashion. The whole point of the riffle is its unpredictability.
Edit: which you specified. It IS about unpredictability. So you shouldn't be looking for a nice perfect riffle.
July 22, 2015 5:34 p.m. Edited.
I will now proceed to get my only paper magic deck and shuffle it in all the ways mentioned above.
July 22, 2015 5:42 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
Riffling? It's like nothing is sacred to you people.
I bet you also shake babies.
July 22, 2015 5:47 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #34
Why Epoch, are you one of those pile shuffling scrubs?
July 22, 2015 5:53 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #35
What kind of rube do you take me for?
Mash shuffling master race.
July 22, 2015 5:54 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #36
Mash shuffling is good for the soul.
It's also good for cheating.
July 22, 2015 5:56 p.m.
I've heard (from my card-counting uncle, as well as the internet) that the most reliable (and fastest) way to randomize a deck is to riffle shuffle once, then cut the top 1/4-1/3 of the deck onto the bottom and riffle again... Then cut the bottom 1/4-1/3 to the top, rifle, then repeat step 1...
Side note: I personally dislike pile shuffling, as it actually doesn't 'randomize' the deck (as mentioned earlier), and it wastes my times. I've been in plenty of matches where we wouldn't have drawn had my opponent not pile shuffled 3 times.
July 22, 2015 5:58 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #38
Wait now I'm confused. What's the difference between riffle and mash shuffling?
July 22, 2015 5:59 p.m.
Mash takes half the deck or so and puts it on top of the other deck, then fans out the bottom half, allowing the top half to fall into place. Riffle is what you see most playing card people use...
July 22, 2015 6:01 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit - Riffle is akin to shuffling a deck of cards where you cut it roughly in half and then pick up the sides facing each other and let the cards fall in an interlacing order. Mash is when you take two parts of a deck and push them together in an attempt to interlace them.
July 22, 2015 6:02 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #42
Can I get a video of the difference? From the descriptions, it sounds like riffle and mash shuffling are literally the same thing.
July 22, 2015 6:05 p.m.
Riffle - split the deck into two halves and hold them side by side. Fan the two halves through your fingers so that the cards pile up on top of each other. Combine the two halves.
Mash - get half your deck in your hand and put the other half on its side. Mash the half you picked up between the cards in the other half.
They're kind of the same but in one you try to fan the cards through each other and in the other method you just mash em in.
July 22, 2015 6:06 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #45
Riffle is the one that's easy to do with unsleeved cards. Very difficult to mash (good condition) playing cards.
I haven't yet met someone who sleeves their playing cards, though that would be cool.
July 22, 2015 6:19 p.m. Edited.
Gidgetimer says... #46
For randomization you want the cards to unpredictably combine. The comment I made about perfect riffles and mashes being reordering is about the fact that if you shuffle so that the cards interlace 1 to 1 maintaining the top card each shuffle 8 perfect riffles in a row will put a 52 card deck back in the order it was before the shuffles.
July 22, 2015 7:09 p.m.
Dalektable says... #48
I mash shuffle, however maybe I do so a bit too aggressively as just yesterday I broke one of my KMC Hypermats, which I have never had happen to me. I don't like riffle shuffling, and like shuffling takes far too long for my liking. Mash shuffling is quick and can be done in the fastest fashion I've found, which is why I opt for it.
July 22, 2015 11:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #49
Mash shuffle. Choice shuffle of non-plebs.
Riffle shuffle. Choice heresy of baby shakers.
July 22, 2015 11:31 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #50
lmfao Epoch, please, tell us how you really feel.
Who the hell riffle shuffles Magic cards? That shit bends them so bad.
MetroidMann says... #2
This might be an interesting read.
July 22, 2015 4:07 p.m.