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IMO Neheb, the Worthy is solid, I won't say strictly better than Heir, but justifies its inclusion, since the you won't be able to benefit from being Hellbent just trusting your topdecks if your opponent has a full hand. The Minotaur tribal isn't the relevant part of its text in here, Neheb clears opponents' hands of additional threats and keeps the aggro plan safe and sound. Heir is probably a very good sideboard option to replace Neheb against other Hellbent decks, I'd say.
Also, you're probably right about Collective Brutality, even Lay Bare the Heart could be a better option to pick and choose what we don't want opponents to cast, but even so I'm not sure about the necessity. Grasp is not assured removal right now, but I'm guessing Felidar Guardian will be banned, opening way to the return of Constrictor decks, maybe some kind of Revolt deck, and lots of aggro, so, apart from anything running Gearhulks, Grasp might be fine, but in that scenario so is Fiery Temper, are there really additional removal spells needed? I'd definitely run those Scrapheap Scroungers though. They don't have Madness, but they might as well. Similar to why Pyromancer's Goggles decks used to run Drownyard Temple, Scrapheap Scrounger is a good discard, it practically makes no difference casting it from your graveyard anyway, and turns on your Unlicensed Disintegrations.
April 21, 2017 9:22 a.m.
Neither Demonfire or Devil's Play kill the whole table. Banefire is a similar effect. The point of running Fireball is that it lets you pay additional mana to divide the damage between additional targets (like Comet Storm). Ignite Memories seems like a pretty good way to win the game, targeting yourself after drawing most of your deck, but sometimes it might not work and people will want to see that pan out, so it might be more obnoxious for other players too.
I don't run Top, so I never considered Future Sight, but it seems like a solid inclusion.
April 19, 2017 3:38 p.m.
Keep in mind that Fireball can be countered, so it's good to have at least Past in Flames as a backup if you get it countered once or if you have to pitch it to a wheel effect and need to play it from the graveyard ;)
April 19, 2017 1:27 p.m.
By the time I started building my own, the whole list would have cost me about 200$ (it was probably the best almost budget competitive deck by then), I took my time as I didn't want to invest all of that at once, and it ended up costing more than double that price. Now I don't see any of those cards spiking that much more, but they're still expensive, so one thing at a time.
Just keep in mind that the major menace to infect is still optimal spot removal. It was so one year ago, and now with Fatal Push it got even better. Inkmoth Nexus will also be worse against burn now, with Harsh Mentor being printed. I've thought about even cards like Collected Company to find me enough infect sources to overcome removal, but that would also expose more creatures at each time, and sometimes that's even worse, because with one creature out at a time, you might sometimes bait additional burn spells out of your opponent's hand to deal with a pumped infect creature, keeping one additional threat in hand, while with both on the battlefield your opponent has better information and can better deal with your threats.
Hexproof and countermagic against removal spells are probably the best cards infect players need while pulling the trigger, and if not, ways to get more infect sources are vital. One other card that you might have to keep in mind is Twisted Image, since Spellskites will completely stall your deck, and Twisted Image straight up kills them and replaces itself. Spellskite is also a good way for you to deal with targeted removal at your creatures, but a bit expensive. I never ended up adding them to my deck, but they are probably the best protection you can have, especially since they don't die to Fatal Push or Lightning Bolt and will force your opponents to waste all their resources to deal with your threat only after dealing with your Spellskite.
Again, that's a lot of money to throw into the deck, so go one piece at a time and try to get a feel for what are the most important inclusions for you given your meta. These are just my experiences and helpful as they might be, you might have very different experiences given your local meta, so ultimately it's all up to your feelings about the deck ;)
April 19, 2017 10:55 a.m.
This deck was built with Multiplayer Commander in mind which is the only Commander format I personally care about. To play 1v1 I still prefer modern. In multiplayer the last ban announcement came last month after Aether Revolt had time to sink in, and no changes were made to the banlist which leads me to believe Breya is safe in the format, since the sets that would strengthen her the most were just released and evaluated in that announcement. In fact, I believe no bans are going to be announced with Amonkhet either, since the panel which decides the EDH banlist is very conservative about banning cards and nothing is too broken in the format right now. And the main reason these cards are broken in 1v1 Commander has more to due with the life total rule change that they've made recently, than with any broken strategy in particular, IMO, but that's a conversation for another topic.
Long story short, Breya is and will be safe from the multiplayer ban hammer and rightfully so. If you do like the list and want to build your own, you should be safe ;)
April 19, 2017 10:41 a.m.
There's a low creature count in every infect deck, and any one mana removal spell gets our creatures, so infect's bane is spot removal. Too many pump spells and few draw spells will leave us with hands filled with pump and battlefields depleted of infect sources. Peek gives you information about your opponent's hand before you throw all your pump spells on a creature that will be removed (especially relevant when your pumps are sorcery speed), while Serum Visions gives you more fuel to keep being the aggressor. Spell Pierce is probably the best way to keep your creatures safe from that cheap removal, since you want to win early anyway, and that extra 2 mana will almost never be available by the time they'd need it.
I wouldn't worry too much about getting your pump spells countered because they'd be trading one for one with you, and not impacting the board, while you are twice as fast killing them anyway. Usually Infect loses by getting threats removed after you spend resources making them lethal (Which also makes a good point for mainboard Blossoming Defense over Rancor as added protection)
I'd say in most modern FNM venues infect is not competitively viable without Inkmoth Nexus and personally I never tried the deck without Become Immense even after the Gitaxian Probe ban, but I didn't play in many different venues to be sure, it's just a feeling based on my own experience with the deck. There's few things worse than keeping a hand with Glistener Elf, land and a bunch of pump spells to win t2 or t3 and when you pull the trigger your opponent waits for you to dump all your spells or spend all your mana and hit you with a Fatal Push or Path to Exile.
For a budget deck this is certainly okay, but since the top tier infect list has been axed so harshly by the Gitaxian Probe ban, I have serious doubts about this list's power in a fairly normal Modern event, at least, in my venues it wouldn't be competitive (and I know because I started with a list somewhat similar to this one, being forced to add Noble Hierarch, fetchlands and Inkmoth Nexus to at least be in the run.)
And finally Invigorate is not modern legal. So if this is just a casual infect deck, forget everything I said. It's pretty good as is! All my sugestions are simply based on current modern meta and are meant to help you be stronger in an environment that has evolved to have all the answers to completely neutralize infect (to a point where even Tron got worse overall, by changing colors just to be better positioned against infect).
April 19, 2017 10:20 a.m.
Probably needs to be more streamlined, in my experience Partner Commanders tend to not be very fast unless they are enabling some sort of fast combo, and you don't seem to have a lot of pieces needed to combo off fast.
Paradox Engine is insane with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix, and it combos perfectly with Isochron Scepter (and a respectable package of instants), easy inclusions that also strenghten Akiri, Line-Slinger incidentally.
I'd run a lot more wheel effects, and there are some not too expensive in the likes of Windfall, Winds of Change, Molten Psyche, Reforge the Soul, also ways to make use of the cards you pitch, like Past in Flames or even Snapcaster Mage, Torrential Gearhulk, Jace, Telepath Unbound and such.
Even if you go infinite on mana, which you can with the cards you already run, I don't see exactly how you'd turn that into a win right away, so you might actually go infinite without being able to win the game on the spot. Also, you can make infinite colorless mana, but not convert it to any color, so even if you draw into your whole deck with Staff of Domination, you wouldn't be able to cast more than a few cards, Gemstone Array is a good addition that helps with that as well, and if you want to win by drawing your whole deck, maybe Laboratory Maniac as well, even though I'd prefer some kind of Fireball which is my weapon of choice.
Check out my deck for any additional insight if you want to. Kydele and Akiri are not the most competitive pair, but they are very underrated nontheless. Really fun duo to play, I just think you need to fine tune your list a bit more to be able to make the most of it consistently ;)
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 4 | 4 COMMENTS | 400 VIEWS | IN 3 FOLDERS
April 19, 2017 9:58 a.m.
Never thought of that, it's a bit too situational for my taste, but given that the deck runs so many ways to draw extra cards, it's some serious inevitability. And besides it doesn't do a thing, it triggers on cast, even if it gets countered, so if it doesn't go to the graveyard, you just need to cast it again, even if it gets countered, it wins the game.
Let's run a scenario. Without wheel effects, even if you have Dictate of Kruphix + Howling Mine on the battlefield, you draw 3 a turn, you'll only draw into Approach of the Second Sun 3 turns after you cast it the first time. Can the table kill you within those 3 turns if you don't find any draw spell? Without any draw effects, they almost certainly can kill you in 7 turns. If you feel you are dead in 3 turns (which I believe is the realistic scenario for this win if you shoot it without a wheel effect in hand), the card will only be relevant if you have any type of wheel in hand by the time you cast it, making it more of a liability than a win con most times. If the table can't kill you within those 3 turns, then Approach is definitely a mandatory inclusion.
It's a weird card. I really want to like it, and I really want to play it, but something tells me that it looks much better in theory than in real game application. I'll give it a try though, because definitely it will be a lot of fun!
April 19, 2017 9:34 a.m.
I've actually been pretty consistent at outpacing/ignoring Narset, Enlightened Master with my own Breya deck. I didn't really expect this deck to be that powerful, but it is usually!
Narset was my absolute best deck, meant for those revenge kills after a few salty defeats, or to play against more cutthroat playgroups, but Breya has proven just as powerful most of the times, and a lot more fun for everybody, in comparison. I've had people borrow my Narset deck against my Breya deck and I won, whenever I didn't end up mana screwed.
And even if you don't go all in with a big budget for those expensive cards, the deck is actually pretty affordable. I'm shifting my deck a bit more into what yours look like, with less creatures and less token generators, to favor some additional control - if I'm comboing off it doesn't matter if I have 2 Thopters or 20 on the battlefield by that time, it matters if I am still alive. So countermagic, all sorts of removal, Baby Jace, and Torrential Gearhulk, instead of big bombs like Hellkite Tyrant and such. I really wanted to make Blightsteel Colossus work, but then I faced a Sen Triplets deck, filled with Acquire and other theft cards like that. I ended up having to get rid of Blightsteel Colossus 3 times in one game and I still won, but it's more of a liability than a game ender and it's the perfect example of why the more controlling route is probably the best for Breya.
I really liked your list, well deserved upvote ;)
Feel free to check out my own as well, I'm thinking about those changes to my own list so any suggestion is welcome!
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 10 | 8 COMMENTS | 1034 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS
April 18, 2017 11:59 a.m.
With Vedalken Orrery would this be "Nobody expects the King who says Ni"?
Awesome deckname, already deserving the upvote. Also, for the overall price, it looks really well balanced. I also have a Brago deck that started a lot like this and I've been slowly upgrading it.
Tezzeret the Seeker is probably the main upgrade you should look into, because it assembles your combo faster and oddly enough ramps you incredibly, since you get both get a free Whir of Invention and untap 2 mana rocks usually in the same turn, thanks to Brago. I also run Thought-Knot Seer as an additional way to mill everyone and Reality Acid is amazing in Brago. Otherwise I don't think there are any missing staples you should run no matter what. But if you're in the Stax game, then probably Tangle Wire would be a worthy inclusion.
April 17, 2017 7:48 p.m.
You can upvote my deck instead. See what I did there? Politics! eheh
But yeah, I get your point and I kinda reverse psychology my way out of that. I play against a very annoying Atraxa, Praetors' Voice deck. As soon as Atraxa hits the table I know I'm the first one to be targeted 90% of the times. With Breya I just say "okay, wanna race it? You cast Atraxa and come at me, I kill her with Breya. We'll be slowing each other down and eventually I combo off and win, and you did nothing else but poke me".
I very rarely use Breya's abilities outside of combos, or responding to removal. She has that versatility, it doesn't mean I have to use it each and every time. I prefer to stay quiet until I can really do some damage - again, my Omnath, Locus of Rage deck most times poops out dozens of 5/5 tokens that Lightning Bolt something when they die, and I just stay back with 5/5 "walls" until I can kill someone (or everyone) in one shot. Then not only I avoid being target of revenge kills, but I also make people worry about who's going first and try not to provoke me so I don't pick them. That's similar to what Breya can do. It's all a matter of adapting to the environment. If people turn against you, you have to see what could you do differently to disencourage them from doing so, or punish them for it.
Fuklaw, some players find combos annoying and I get it, but against that, the answer should be learning what combos off with what, and developing answers to each combo, being in countermagic or removal, or even cards that completely hose the combo (thinking about Tainted Remedy for a Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood combo, for instance), not turning against the combo player just because he wins like that. Sometimes that might feel necessary, but doing that everytime it makes the game less fun for everybody, so as much as I encourage people to try different decks to freshen things up, I also defend that people should seek some variance in game experience (and that Atraxa player actually has a pretty cool way to do this, just switching Atraxa for the Partner commanders sometimes for no reason, and it is still very competitive within our playgroup). IMO, that's what makes EDH so much fun.
April 17, 2017 7:33 p.m.
No problem! ;) I'm glad to be helpful.
I'm running Tezzeret, Master of Metal and this weekend I took my copy of Tezzeret the Seeker from my Brago deck to try it out in Breya (and I didn't really need to try it because I know it should be in there). Master of Metal is cool, but not straight up necessary. It gets worse as your meta gets faster, not only because it just slowly provides card advantage, but because the real use of it's minus ability will never be game ending unless you are already one on one, and in Breya by my experience that means the game is not going too well anyway. I will change my deck a bit and include both, but between one or another (and regarding the fact that you can only keep one of them on the battlefield at the same time) I'd always favor Tezzeret the Seeker because it tutors for your combo pieces for "free". As for Darksteel Forge, I'm not a huge fan of it, but I get that some people include it in Breya decks. I favor recrusion over indestructibility (especially because there are always cards like Merciless Eviction and such), but if you feel like you can spare a slot for it, yes it definitely doesn't hurt you.
About being the target, I usually deal with that running different decks. And if you are thinking of building new decks, I'd definitely recommend it to change things up a bit and make the games more about fun and less about "you win everytime so we are gonna kill you first". You can end up winning with a different deck anyway, but the games feel different, and so you become the target less often.
There is no particular answer to that problem in deckbuilding, sure you can defend yourself by building your deck in such a way that your opponents' typical answers to you don't hurt you that much, but that will lower the overall power of your deck, and turn it into a dud against most other playgroups if you tend to play with different people. I've been dealing with this problem with my Marchesa, the Black Rose deck. It is very sub-optimal as a deck. Budget and not that fast, but once I build up a board, people get frightened and try to kill me. I've tried to change the deck, even made a quicker version of it with proxies so I could maybe outpace that table alliance against me, but nothing can really deal with that once your playgroup hits a certain power level. Maybe Brago Stax, or a super fast Narset deck can do good in an Archenemy-like game because they are so broken and powerful, but in my experience that is not that fun when you really want to play EDH. So after all this rant, what I want to get across is that whatever you do, with whatever deck you play, it's hard to overcome the table turning against you by building differently.
It depends on each meta, but in my case I think I'll be running Torrential Gearhulk, Evacuation and a suite of countermagic and removal, that will help me not only protect myself and my combos better, but also get the most out of my resources. I'll DM you as soon as I change my list with some tips if you feel like that can help you as well. This is not a way to deal with your problem directly, since it is a way to make the deck stronger as a whole anyway, that incidentally might deal with that problem. But as I said, above a certain power level, that might protect you better, but not make a huge dent on your opponents.
You can try and make deals while playing, be political, to avoid all of your opponents to turn against you, or at least have some kind of protection to buy you enough time to win on a combo.
Also, since your main win cons are combos, I'd keep my shields up. I personally rarely attack with my own Breya deck, that dissuades people from coming at you, and makes you less of a menace while you're not touching any of them in particular.
But mostly, I'd really recommend you try different decks, even budget ones, or high concept ones, even if you just proxy them for one or two games once in a while. The fact that you have the ability to change how the game feels, makes people less aggressive towards you even if you are the strongest player, and overall makes the playgroup healthier (and when playing a combo deck, keeps less informed players forgetting of your win conditions :) which is also nice!). I'd recommend you check out Omnath, Locus of Rage and Nekusar, the Mindrazer as potential budget commanders (that aren't very encouraging to attack into as well) if you want to build a deck for that matter, and obviously, each commander deck release from WotC is a cheap way to play something different usually.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't play Breya, you definitely should, I'm just saying that she's one of the most underrated generals out there, and once people see how powerful she can be, they tend to get salty and target you naturally - again my own experience, I play a Narset deck, and I tried it out for the first time with a playgroup I had never played against. As soon as they saw Narset they said to each other "We've got to kill that one first!" and I've never been able to even cast Narset against them because of that. My deck is not that powerful, but since they've played against broken Narset decks, they target me as a precaution. I believe that Breya will sometimes get the same treatment if people played against her before, but I don't believe you should change your deck almost like you're sideboarding it against hate, just to deal with that. At least I wouldn't. Personally I try to show people something like "see, I'm just here to have fun, if you don't like Breya I'll even play something else, but let me play the game too". I'm sorry I went on a huge rant, but this is hard to explain and it often becomes a taboo-like issue that tears some playgroups apart. If people don't enjoy playing against something and take revenge instead of talking about it, it's hard to have fun games, so keep that in mind and try to change things up sometimes if you feel you're being hate-targeted too often.
April 17, 2017 9:52 a.m.
I decided to run a similar build on MTGO, one card I'd recommend is Sacred Ground.
Definitely not a deck meant for fun but incredibly competitive in a Two-headed Giant EDH game as a support deck. And mostly, a really cheap way to get revenge kills after those games you've been the table's punching bag with any other deck.
April 15, 2017 11:46 a.m.
Yeah, Purphoros is amazing and worth the extra $ if you are not going infinite. Personally I don't run it because Reckless Fireweaver and Disciple of the Vault work the same way basically and the extra damage wouldn't matter while going infinite.
Warstorm Surge is also a nice idea if your plan is blinking, it will do some heavy lifting alongside Purphoros.
I've been thinking a lot about Phyresis as an additional threat, enchanting Breya, and turning her activated ability in a much faster wincon, but auras are pretty weak against removal, and one infect source alone is not that reliable, while a lot leaves your opponents on their toes, which makes the game less fun.
Maybe Mechanized Production would be cool as well. It's a really slow win con on itself, but if you cast it on Breya, you'll have 8 thopters in no time, especially with Panharmonicon, and you might even have those 8 thopters and cast that for a insta-win. Otherwise, casting it on Panharmonicon for extra-extra-extra ETBs sounds fun, maybe on Sculpting Steel copying whatever you need each turn, providing you different ETBs instead of additional copies of the same ETB, Combustible Gearhulk for immense card draw and a lot of board presence, or even Noxious Gearhulk to keep the board in check and gain some life. It's a fun card IMO, and while not instantly game changing most times, it ends up making your path to victory easier pretty much everytime you have the chance to cast it.
But I get your difficulty. I also have a lot of trouble figuring ways for Breya to win without going infinite. Of course you can just keep the boards clear with her abilities and try to hit for commander damage, but that's just a regular game of Magic, and Breya kinda asks for something more spicy.
April 12, 2017 5:52 p.m.
Maybe just one copy instead of Hazoret's Monument since it also functions as a way to discard and it is legendary. Call the Bloodline won't be very impressive in many situations, but given that this is still a very aggro format, it might become very relevant in some matchups to include at least one mainboard so you can still get blockers on the battlefield if you're drawing poorly and on your backfoot facing other aggro deck. More than the blocker itself, the lifelink will matter.
It's one of those cards that depends a lot on the meta, so you'll have to try it out when time comes to be sure about its value, but as things stand, I'd say one copy in the main would be helpful.
April 12, 2017 7:30 a.m.
I got that feeling, yeah. But in that case look into Flameshadow Conjuring. That's crazy with Panharmonicon getting 4 triggers for each creature you cast and straight up turns Massacre Wurm into a wincon itself, giving everything -8/-8 and 4 damage to everyone else for each creature dying. Even if it doesn't turn on a lot of different win cons right away, it will get you so much more value from all your creatures and blink effects, it's insane. Worst case scenario, it's a second copy of Panharmonicon, for all intents and purposes. Also, you are playing a strategy that's most known to Brago, King Eternal, so it's inclusion might not be a bad thought as well.
I can get behind the plan of a deck just for value and fun, in fact most of my decks were at some point just that. But with the evolution of my playgroup, I ended up looking into more straight ways to win the game. Then I went and made a Narset, Enlightened Master deck and provoked the whole playgroup's wrath, which is why I fully get that resistance to infinite combos.
But anyway, it doesn't hurt to know about different ways the deck can go and additional cards that might improve it (or break it lol).
April 12, 2017 7:13 a.m.
3 Nahiri's Wrath might be too much. I'd run one at most, because late game it will be one of your worst possible draws if your hellbent plan is going well, and won't solve your issues if it isn't going according to plan.
I don't believe this is going to be tier 1, or even 2, since standard is a bit broken right now, but it certainly looks like a fun deck to try out at FNMs.
Well deserved upvote ;)
April 12, 2017 6:27 a.m.
If you are looking to abuse ETBs you should run Eldrazi Displacer as well. It can even go infinite with Breya. If you are looking for more ways to go infinite, you should check Krark-Clan Ironworks, Grand Architect, Pili-Pala, Reckless Fireweaver, Disciple of the Vault, but since you have a lot of combo pieces but not (most of the) complete combos I get the feeling that you might be avoiding that.
The core of your deck is way different than mine, but feel free to check it out as well if you want any additional insights ;)
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 8 | 8 COMMENTS | 885 VIEWS | IN 3 FOLDERS
April 12, 2017 6:16 a.m.
For a relatively new player this deck is looking solid! Great job there!
Marionette Master is cool but in my deck I ended up keeping in just Disciple of the Vault and Reckless Fireweaver, since they are much cheaper and don't require You have a few expensive beaters so maybe 33 lands might be a bit inconsistent, I personally never tested with fewer than 35 in this deck.
Grand Architect and Pili-Pala also enable a few other combos. And if you run Salvaging Station and Krark-Clan Ironworks already, you might want to look into Blasting Station and Flayer Husk for another infinite damage combo.
Check out my deck as well, you definitely seem to be on the right track, but maybe you'll find something useful in there as well ;)
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 8 | 8 COMMENTS | 885 VIEWS | IN 3 FOLDERS
Well deserved upvote ;)
April 12, 2017 6:06 a.m.
But your list is looking nice! Check out my own below as well, I went through most of my choices in the description, so it might be helpful as well. I'd appreciate any suggestions you might have too ;)
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 7 | 8 COMMENTS | 857 VIEWS | IN 3 FOLDERS
Well deserved upvote ;)
April 11, 2017 5:20 p.m.
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 19 | 24 COMMENTS | 1151 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 8 | 4 COMMENTS | 742 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 11 | 10 COMMENTS | 1198 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS
|Avg. deck rating||9.33|
|Favorite formats||Standard, Commander / EDH, Modern|
|Good Card Suggestions||136|
|Venues||casual play, Friday Night Magic|
|Last activity||2 days|