Rules question regarding -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters
Asked by masterosok 10 years ago
Does an -1/-1 counter remove a +1/+1 counter say if a creature was given a +1/+1 counter then a -1/-1 counter or would that be considered two separate counters on the creature that result in zero changes to toughness and power?
This is specifically regarding the Undying mechanic and if adding -1/-1 counters negates the +1/+1 counter a creature would receive after being destroyed and returning to play.
after proliferate came out I'm pretty sure they made it so they cancel each other out, since if not then you could poliferate a creature's -1/-1 counter when they had a net bonus of +2/+2. So yes, if you can give a -1/-1 counter to a creature that comes back with undying it can then be brought back again with undying, mind you it has to be a -1/-1 counter, not a -1/-1 effect like Viper's Kiss
June 27, 2014 1:40 a.m.
Just to be clear on what I meant. The two counters do counteract each other, so when you condense you remove +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters until you end up with zero counters or only one type of counter remains on the creature.
June 27, 2014 1:40 a.m.
A + counter will remove a - counter from the card, and vice versa.
Curiously enough, though, if you kill a creature that has Undying and a +1/+1 counter on it with -1/-1 counters (perhaps from Black Sun's Zenith ), it stays dead. There were two conflicting rules about this and a top judge eventually just picked one to overrule the other.
June 27, 2014 2:09 a.m.
masterosok says... #5
Thanks for the information.
I will used the Q&A next time. I didn't even notice it up there.
June 27, 2014 2:17 a.m.
@ zandl it's the same with infect damage and undying. If an undying creature with +1/+1 counter dies from infect damage it stays dead.
June 27, 2014 6:12 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
Moved to BE.
Regarding what zandl and Putrefy mentioned, the reasoning is that state-based actions are all performed simultaneously. Because the creature had both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it before SBAs were performed and it died (the counters are removed as an SBA), undying and persist won't trigger for it.
Slycne says... Accepted answer #1
Yes, you always condense down to the lowest number of counters. And yes, if you were to remove a counter somehow from a creature with undying or persist it will come back when it's killed again.
Also, in the future there's a dedicated section for rules related questions on the site: here. You can see the link across the top under MTG Q&A as well.
June 27, 2014 1:38 a.m.