Ixidron and Infinite Reflection?
Asked by Antarktika 10 years ago
This is a rules question that's only in the commander thread because the two card combo is in the blue 2015 Commander deck: Peer Through Time, which I got a while ago on Christmas.
So, lets say everybody has a good amount of creatures out. You drop Ixidron, and turn them all into 2/2s. Then you play Infinite Reflection on your Ixidron. My theory is that the face down cards on your side are now Ixidrons too, with the exact same p/t as the original, because they are still face down, which means you basically get a bunch of 17/17s, or something crazy like that.
However, when I told this to my friend the other day, he insisted that all the creatures that became copies of Ixidron turned face up because Ixidron was face up. This doesn't seem right to me.
Help?
Epochalyptik says... #2
Copy effects do not alter the status (face up, transformed, flipped, tapped) of either the original or the copy.
Infinite Reflection's copy effect will turn all of your creatures into copies of Ixidron. They are still face down, so they count toward each Ixidron's characteristic-defining ability.
@gamerboy12k: Turning something face down or face up doesn't alter whether it's a token or not. Tokens are not cards, and cards are not tokens. An object can never change from token to card or card to token. Additionally, Ixidron's ability cares only about face-down creatures. It doesn't care about token vs. nontoken status.
May 17, 2015 11:14 a.m.
gamerboy12k says... #3
my bad for posting twice..but just looked up rulings. That would work since the creatures are still face-down, and the 2/2 creatures are copies of Ixidron, so they would all gain the benefit of each other.
BUT, the next Ixidron cast would turn the original down, and possibly destroy the enchantment, thus killing the entire plan.
May 17, 2015 11:16 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
Why would the next creature destroy the enchantment? Also, you'd only be casting Ixidron if it's an Ixidron in other zones; Infinite Reflection's copy effect only applies to creatures on the battlefield (and starts applying as they enter).
May 17, 2015 11:19 a.m. Edited.
gamerboy12k says... #5
wouldn't the next Ixidron entering the battlefield turn the enchanted one over...oh my bad, wrong wording...I meant turn every creature into 2/2 creatures instead of Ixidrons...that is how it works right?
May 17, 2015 11:22 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
It would, but that wouldn't destroy the enchantment. Infinite Reflection remains on the battlefield until it's destroyed by a destroy effect, removed with some other effect, or put into its owner's graveyard for enchanting an illegal object (this is not destruction).
A face-down Ixidron is still a creature (it would be a vanilla 2/2), so Infinite Reflection will remain attached to it.
May 17, 2015 11:30 a.m.
gamerboy12k says... #7
but would it copy the 2/2? or the Ixidron that was face down...it should be the 2/2 right?
May 17, 2015 11:50 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
It would copy the vanilla 2/2 because that's the creature that's currently enchanted by Infinite Reflection.
May 17, 2015 12:10 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
The next creature will enter the battlefield as a copy of Ixidron, but that will only really affect the original Ixidron enchanted with Infinite Reflection. The other creatures are already face-down, so trying to turn them face-down again doesn't do anything. When the original Ixidron turns face down it becomes a 2/2 with no abilities. This won't make all the other creatures currently on the battlefield 2/2s with no abilities because Infinite Reflection only does that when it first enters the battlefield. Any subsequent creatures that enter the battlefield will be 2/2s with no abilities (but they won't be face-down).
May 17, 2015 12:20 p.m.
The original intent of the question doesn't seem to be addressed here, so just I'm going spell it out:
This doesn't get you a bunch of really big creatures. This gets you one normal sized Ixidron, and a bunch of 2/2's.
Yes, the face-down creatures become copies of Ixidron, but as Epoch said, they're face-down copies of Ixidron, so unless they're turned face-up, they'll still be 2/2 creatures with no other characteristics.
707.10. If a face-down permanent becomes a copy of another permanent, its copiable values become the copiable values of that permanent, as modified by its face-down status. Its characteristics therefore remain the same: the characteristics listed by the ability or rules that allowed it to be turned face down. However, if it is turned face up, its copiable values become the values it copied from the other permanent. See rule 706.3.
The only way this works in your favor is if you had a bunch of token creatures out, as Ixidron doesn't turn tokens face-down. However, the tokens wouldn't then count toward any Ixidron's power and toughness.
May 17, 2015 6:56 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
@sonnet666: You misunderstand. The cards are face down, but they're still copies of Ixidron. The copy effect overrides the 2/2 vanilla base stats of the face-down creatures.
Edit for clarity: You'll have a field full of Ixidrons, all but one of which are face-down. Your Ixidrons' P/T will be equal to the number of copies of Ixidron you have (not including the original).
May 17, 2015 6:59 p.m. Edited.
Epochalyptik says... #13
You're correct; my mistake.
I had to go read 706.3 to make sure it's the correct interpretation.
706.3. The copy's copiable values become the copied information, as modified by the copy's status (see rule 110.6). Objects that copy the object will use the new copiable values.
Example: A face-down Grinning Demon (a creature with morph) becomes a copy of a face-up Branchsnap Lorian (a 4/1 green creature with trample and morph
). The Demon's characteristics become the characteristics of Branchsnap Lorian. However, since the creature is face down, it remains a 2/2 colorless creature with no name, types, or abilities, and no mana cost. It can be turned face up for
This seems, to me, to be counterintuitive. I would think (rather, I did think) that the copy effect would apply to the permanent as it exists on the battlefield, meaning that its current characteristics are overwritten. However, I'm not an expert on face-down interactions; I suppose that's the trouble.
May 17, 2015 8:30 p.m. Edited.
Yeah, morphs are tricky.
Think about this way: Face up/down is a status of permanents. So is tapped/untapped. If a tapped creature were to become a copy of an untapped creature, it wouldn't untap, right? It's the same thing with face up and down, except instead of the rule baggage being, "this creature can't attack or block," it's, "this permanent is a 2/2 creature with no other characteristics."
May 17, 2015 10:47 p.m.
Antarktika says... #15
Thanks everybody, for your answers. And yes, I now realize I should have put this in rules qna.
gamerboy12k says... #1
wouln't the 2/2 creature turn into Ixidron...but since they are now a nontoken creature they do not count to adding p/t to them.
Tell me if im wrong, but that seems to be the most logical (the cards never turn back, but are now a copy).
May 17, 2015 11:05 a.m.