Does Vesuvan Shapeshifter work with Root Elemental?
Asked by ngr227 10 years ago
I am doing a morph deck (you can see it on my page) and I want to know before I buy all of the cards I need for it if a combo will work. Can I use Vesuvan shapeshifter to copy a root elemental and thus cheat out a second creature for only 2cmc?
Rhadamanthus says... #3
This works.
Vesuvan Shapeshifter 's replacement effect (replacement effects have "as", "with", "instead", "prevent", or "skip" somewhere in the text) modifies how it gets turned face up, meaning it has to be applied before it's actually turned face-up. As the Shapeshifter is turned face up, it becomes a copy of Root Elemental , which means it has the Elemental's triggered ability (starts with "when/whenever/at") at the time it would trigger.
Actually, Vesuvan Shapeshifter was specifically designed to be able to do things like this. Back when Time Spiral was in Standard, there was a deck called "Pickles" that comboed Vesuvan Shapeshifter with Brine Elemental to lock down the opponent every turn.
August 14, 2014 10:05 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #5
The final result comes from a combination of several rules. Here are some of the most important ones:
614.1e Effects that read "As [this permanent] is turned face up...," are replacement effects.
614.4. Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs - they can't "go back in time" and change something that's already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
707.10. If a face-down permanent becomes a copy of another permanent, its copiable values become the copiable values of that permanent, as modified by its face-down status. Its characteristics therefore remain the same: the characteristics listed by the ability or rules that allowed it to be turned face down. However, if it is turned face up, its copiable values become the values it copied from the other permanent. See rule 706.3.
There's also a Rulings Note on Vesuvan Shapeshifter's Gatherer page making the interaction clear:
9/25/2006 If Vesuvan Shapeshifter is turned face up, the process of turning face up includes (optionally) choosing another creature on the battlefield. You'll pay 
(not the morph cost, if any, of the new creature), then Vesuvan Shapeshifter will turn face up as a copy of that creature, plus the triggered ability it gives itself. It won't turn face up as a Vesuvan Shapeshifter and then change. If the copied creature has a "when this creature is turned face up" ability, it will trigger for Vesuvan Shapeshifter.
August 14, 2014 1:58 p.m.
Great! Thank you so much! If any of you wanted to check it out btws, its at Morph Fun
BlueScope says... #1
If you copy a face-up Root Elemental with Vesuvan Shapeshifter , it will be a 6/5 with the Morph ability (that you won't be able to use from the battlefield anymore), the triggered ability that triggers whenever it gets turned face-up, as well as the Vesuvan Shapeshifter s ability of turning it face-down at the beginning of your upkeep.
Now while the turning face-up ability is copied, you never actually turned the creature face-up when it was a copy of Root Elemental (and while you could turn it around at the beginning of your upkeep, it would stop being a copy of Root Elemental in that case). Therefore, you won't get to put a creature card from your hand into play that way.
August 14, 2014 5:30 a.m.