Debt of loyalty targeting a commander
Asked by SlippinJimmy 6 years ago
If you force the "regenerate" effect on their commander and kill it, because a replacement effect is already preventing the commander from changing zones do they not get the option to put it into the command zone instead of letting you steal it?
FancyTuesday says... Accepted answer #2
While correct in the conclusion, I'm less sure about the methodology stated above.
From my reading of the rules the commander rule replaces the move between zones, and the regeneration rule replaces the event that moves it. They cannot choose to replace an event that doesn't happen, I don't see any rule that allows a player to choose to move their commander to the command zone if it is not changing zones. Am I missing something?
701.14a If the effect of a resolving spell or ability regenerates a permanent, it creates a replacement effect that protects the permanent the next time it would be destroyed this turn. In this case, Regenerate [permanent] means The next time [permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If its an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat.
701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owners graveyard.
701.7c A regeneration effect replaces a destruction event. See rule 701.14, Regenerate.
903.9. If a commander would be exiled from anywhere or put into its owners hand, graveyard, or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5.
The "destroy" event is what moves it to the graveyard, and the destroy event has been replaced. It never satisfies the "if a commander would [move zones]" criteria because that event that causes it to move zones has been replaced.
May 11, 2018 3:32 a.m. Edited.
SlippinJimmy says... #3
"If a Commander would be put into a library, hand, graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead."
I Think tuesday is right, my interpretation is that the choice to move it to the command zone happens at the same time the change in zones would happen, so if the zone change is prevented by regeneration they never get the ability to choose to send it to the command zone.
May 11, 2018 6:02 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
Right, moving a permanent to the graveyard is the usual result of being destroyed, but regeneration replaces the "destroy" event entirely. The commander wouldn't be changing zones so there's no choice for its owner to make.
Neotrup says... #1
When your opponent's commander goes to be destroyed the event is moving their commander to the graveyard as a destroy action. They have two relevant replacement effects to apply, the regeneration shield, or the command zone rule. If they choose to apply the regeneration shield the new event is tapping the creature, removing all marked damage from it, removing it from combat, and giving you control of it. The zone change effect no longer applies, so they just do that.
If instead they choose to send their commander to the command zone the new event is moving their commander to the command zone as a destroy action. The regeneration shield still applies, as it only cares that the action is destroying, not the zone the permanent will end up in. They now have to apply the second replacement effect, which replaces the destroy action entirely so it doesn't matter that they were trying to send their commander to the command zone.
TL;DR - No, they can't. You get their commander.
May 10, 2018 10:36 p.m.