Counters

Asked by Opifex 12 years ago

if a creature has a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter is added, are they both still there or do they negate eachother?

Kirtanian says... Accepted answer #1

They will cancel each other out. The next time state-based actions are checked they will each cease to exist

121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it

November 27, 2012 11:36 a.m.

Sam_I_am says... #2

to further clarify, only +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters behave this way. +2/+2 counters and other odd counters don't

November 27, 2012 11:54 a.m.

Opifex says... #3

wait there are +2/+2 counters?

November 27, 2012 12:16 p.m.

Dake says... #4

November 27, 2012 12:24 p.m.

abdulbaqr says... #5

One other to note about +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters. They do cancel each other out, but Undying will not trigger if the creatures toughness would go to 0. Example, you have a Young Wolf with a +1/+1 counter from a previous undying. Your opponent puts 2x -1/-1 counters on the wolf. Your wolf will die and not re-trigger the undying because it will die before the counters cancel each other out.

November 27, 2012 1:01 p.m.

MagicalHacker says... #6

abdulbaqr why? :o

November 27, 2012 1:29 p.m.

abdulbaqr says... #7

@Epochalyptik, please correct me if i'm wrong here, but i thought i had seen this question come up before and I think i have the reference I need to back it up.

704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.

Since the creature is put in the graveyard as a state-based action, it looks at the last state of the card before it was put into the graveyard. In that last state, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so Undying doesn't trigger.

November 27, 2012 1:36 p.m.

abdulbaqr says... #8

I think I found the ruling I was looking for in this:

704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanents last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed. The example that they give on the rules page is the Young Wolf one I did.

November 27, 2012 1:39 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #9

You are correct. The death of the creature and the removal of the counters are executed simultaneously, so the LKI (last known information) of that creature will be that it had a +1/+1 counter on it.

On a related note, this upgrade to the notification system is great.

November 27, 2012 1:42 p.m.

abdulbaqr says... #10

Yeah, I am really excited about the tagging of other users.

November 27, 2012 4:54 p.m.

Opifex says... #11

very helpfull thanks guys

November 28, 2012 11:33 a.m.

This discussion has been closed